Downgrading of vocational subjects

[Huguenot]

I was joking wod ;-)

I own my own company, I'm a media consultant and trainer.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

"And how useful is Latin in the real world apart from, of course, the East Dulwich Forum?"

Jolly useful for The Telegraph crossword.

[mynamehere]

Latin is part of a deep and broad education. But I have a question: the word "Engineering". From year 6 I couldn't find any other word that fit my son's strengths: maths and sciences. Everytime I have used this word as a "what will he study.." I have had educators and adults look blankly at me. The idea that "engineering" is "presigious" and oxbridge and really anything at all compared to doctor/ lawyer/ economics/ business has left me apologising and explaining ("he's all A's and A*'s like only a someone without other possibilities for a real subject would do engineering). Comments?

[Huguenot]

Engineering is a damn sight harder than medicine, law or economics. He'd need to be an A-star candidate to get through it.

Your problem is probably because engineers don't go into teaching or the careers advisory service.

Oxford wouldn't be right, Cambridge would be closer but still no banana. I'm guessing UMIST would be the right one, but somebody else probably knows better?

[Jeremy]

UMIST doesn't exist any more, it merged with Manchester Uni. Imperial is possibly the top place for science/tech/engineering in the UK. But engineering is a broad term, you should probably find out what area interests him... civil, mechanical, electronic/tech, aerospace, chemical, etc. The "educators" you've been talking to sound rather clueless, a BEng from a good university will be well respected.

[????]

I suspect that the schools that teach Latin far, far, far out perform those that don't, probably not casusal etc etc but just saying like

[Undisputedtruth]

???? Wrote:

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> I suspect that the schools that teach Latin far,

> far, far out perform those that don't, probably

> not casusal etc etc but just saying like

Purely down to money than teaching Latin. Schools that can teach Latin will have had more money to spend.

[Brendan]

?sright! It?s all that Roman gold I tell you.

[womanofdulwich]

Have you met an engineer?

Everytime you go to a museum they have to look and read every single bloody thing. I spnet 4 hours in FLorence going round the Sceince museum. The only other peolpe there were a couple in their early 70's he was a retired engineer- and she like me was other half.

Does this sound familiar??

[????]

Undisputedtruth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ???? Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I suspect that the schools that teach Latin

> far,

> > far, far out perform those that don't, probably

> > not casusal etc etc but just saying like

>

> Purely down to money than teaching Latin. Schools

> that can teach Latin will have had more money to

> spend.

So, schools that get a lot of money , presumably because people are willing to pay their fees based on the results they get(- as TBH it's largely Private schools with Latin now) do well acidemically but just teach Latin as a random act of 'hell we've got money let's teach Latin for the hell of it!'. My point UDT is that many of the best schools (in terms of results) do in fact teach Latin, so dismissing it as useless etc, as poeple were doing earlier perhaps misses a point. DUCY?

[Brendan]

Latin is a pointless subject but it is often more useful than all the other pointless subjects you have to do at school. It gives you an appreciation of Classics and European history for one thing.

Or is that two tings?

[Undisputedtruth]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So, schools that get a lot of money , presumably

> because people are willing to pay their fees based

> on the results they get(- as TBH it's largely

> Private schools with Latin now) do well

> acidemically but just teach Latin as a random act

> of 'hell we've got money let's teach Latin for the

> hell of it!'. My point UDT is that many of the

> best schools (in terms of results) do in fact

> teach Latin, so dismissing it as useless etc, as

> poeple were doing earlier perhaps misses a point.

> DUCY?

I've merely asked a question on how useful Latin is in the real world. So to say that I've dismissed Latin or schools suddenly teach the subject as a result of a cash bonanza is wrong. The point I was making is money has a huge bearing on what subjects are offered to students. Private schools have more resources than state schools, hence why they perform better. Also private schools do not have the same social issues as states schools.

[Jeremy]

I think Latin is taught in some schools merely because there is a certain prestige attached with it. Especially in the more traditional/established schools. I would find it hard to justify the teaching of an extinct language, while the standard of maths and science in UK schools is so low.

[Brendan]

Meh, you don?t need maths and science to do PPE at Oxford.

[????]

Hooo-foookin---rah

[Undisputedtruth]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hooo-foookin---rah

Even today, I still don't understand how I had passed my O'Level English Literature as I didn't read all of the books.

[StraferJack]

Innate talent I expect

[Undisputedtruth]

I don't think SJ. My English teacher had broken his leg on his skiing trip and we all fell behind on the required books to read.

[????]

More evidence of failure at the basic level

...here

Thanks a lot lowest common denominator educational idealism

[Undisputedtruth]

???? Wrote:

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> More evidence of failure at the basic level

>

> ...here

>

>

>

> Thanks a lot lowest common denominator educational

> idealism

I think the maths teacher shortage problem have always been factor in this country rather than educational idealism, Quids.

Why would a maths graduate want to work in the public sector for relatively low pay and with fringe benefits under attack by the Tories and media?

[????]

I don't think that you need to be a maths graduate to teach some basic maths UDT - apparently a majority of school leavers don't even know what Compound interest is!

[????]

Plus - I'm absolutely in favour of good teachers and especially brilliant ones being paid for this at a true MARKET rate, their input is invaluable and they deserve far more money but good old all for one fits all lowest common denominator socialism has meant traditionally "its the same job, same rate, and no-one gets the sack for incompetence" for everyone.

I'd like more competition, more incentive and more reward for achievement and more crap teachers measured, asked to improve or thrown out, not 'moved aside or ignored' to the detriment of us all and their important profession as has been the traditional approach to poor teaching I believe. Unions hate that sort of thing.

[Undisputedtruth]

With all the public sector cuts, can schools really afford to pay the market rate for good maths teachers?

[????]

Basic maths will do.

I'm talking generally, the Public Finaces being sooo fooked combined with a dumbing down of results to make it look like the massive 'investment' (nicer buildings, more computers, poorer basic literacy/ and arithmetic) under Labour had improved education, education, education is hardly Osbourne's fault.

[????]

...From El Pibe's favourite