Will ED business/residents continue to use Addison Lane?

[richfish]

Just wondering if I will continue to see Addison Lee transporting the expense account residents of SE22 or will the cyclist hate comments mark the end of the Ford Galaxy empire? I rather hope so - can't be terribly inspiring to work for a man that incites aggression to our growing community of cyclists.

[Loz]

He's right though. Why should black cabs be allowed in bus lanes and minicabs not? Either all or none.

[Jeremy]

It's a good company... prices are reasonable (at least for journeys to/from central London), and the app is very useful - as are the SMS updates.

John Griffin's comments may seem insensitive, but the fact is that there ARE lots of irresponsible cyclists on the roads riding dangerously.

[snowy]

Loz Wrote:

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> He's right though. Why should black cabs be

> allowed in bus lanes and minicabs not? Either all

> or none.

Because black cabs are a formal, regulated and trained part of the public transport system overseen by TFL, and unlike AL are accessible to disabled people?

AL is a private enterprise encouraging 3500 staff to break the law and potentially endanger other more vulnerable road users.

[El Pibe]

I quite enjoyed david mitchelss piss take

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/22/minicab-addison-lee-griffin-mitchell

"This is classic Griffin. A more oleaginous arguer might have conjured up an unsympathetic cyclist: a cocky shades-wearing courier, weaving between cars while listening to his iPod, or a self-promoting politician surrounded by obliging paps and tailed by his ministerial car. But not Griffin ? he's happy to go straight for the granny: the stupid, myopic, shaky old biddy, wobbling around the road in the way of minicabs, who doesn't even have the goodness to look where she's going, get a driving licence or buy a fully taxed Lamborghini."

[Loz]

Rubbish, snowy. Black cabs ferry carry people for money. Minicabs ferry people for money. Both are regulated services. There is no difference. Except in price, of course.

Person A gets a black cab from ED to Heathrow. Person B gets a minicab. Why should person A have their cab allowed in the bus lane and person B not? It's just not right.

This is not an AL vs black cabs issue. This is a minicabs vs black cabs issue and whether one part of the industry should have unnecessary privilege and the other discriminated against.

and potentially endanger other more vulnerable road users

Now if you are arguing that black cabs (and by extension, minicabs) not be allowed in bus lanes at all, then I wouldn't disagree.

[Jeremy]

I'm struggling a bit with snowy's suggestion that it is somehow more dangerous for private minicabs to drive in bus lanes than it is for black taxis.

[El Pibe]

I think the vulnerable road users was about AL's head's attitude to cyclists, not bus lanes.

[Loz]

I think the AL head knows how to keep his campaign in the papers. Having a pop at cyclists all but guaranteed him reams of coverage.

Cyclists shouldn't be in bus lanes anyway. Have you been in a bus trying to get up Dog Kennel Hill with a rapidly tiring cyclist barely staying moving in front?

[El Pibe]

I damn near killed a cyclist the other day in gloucesteshire swerving randomly across the full width of a country lane, oblivious to any traffic thanks to the headphones he had on.

twunt.

[Chippy Minton]

There are a FEW irresponsible cyclists, but drivers are responsible for up to 75% of collisions involving cyclists.

[Loz]

Chippy Minton Wrote:

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> There are a FEW irresponsible cyclists, but drivers are responsible for up to 75% of

> collisions involving cyclists.

Nice 'DFS Sofa Sale' use of the phrase 'up to' Chippy. I assume you are referring to the DoT report? That percentage refers to a particular age range. Across ages and accident severity, the percentage of driver fault vs cyclist fault varies wildly.

[Chippy Minton]

It was commissioned by the DoT, but was actually carried out by the Transport Research Laboratory.

It found that with adult cyclists, police found the driver solely responsible in about 60%-75% of all cases.

[Loz]

Hmm, so we've gone from 'up to 75% of collisions involving cyclists' to '60%-75% of all adult cases'. Still not right though.

Actually, you are reading more into the stats than ever intended. The report talks of 'contributory factors' and clearly says:

The Contributory factors in a road collision are the key actions and failures that the police officer judges to have led directly to the actual impact and, as mentioned earlier, should be viewed as indicative only as they result from a subjective view of the accident.

Under the STATS19 system, factors can be attributed to any of the vehicles or casualties involved. This provides the opportunity in the case of cycle collisions to investigate the extent to which the police reporting officers judged that primary contributory factors were related to the cyclist or to others involved in the collision (this does not necessarily mean that the cyclist or other road user was in fact responsible).

The report also states:

Research quoted in Turner, et al. (2006) found that the extent of error on the part of the cyclist varies considerably with age. The crash circumstances of approximately 2,000 injured cyclists were examined and, for children aged under 12 years, a high proportion was judged to be due to cyclist error. Furthermore, the 8 to 12 year old cyclists were judged twice as likely to have caused a crash if they had had no formal training. In contrast, for cyclists over the age of 18 years, less than half of collisions were considered to be due to the actions of another road user.

Anyway, here is the graph of contributor factor attribution.

The full report can be found at: http://www.worthingrevolutions.org.uk/sites/worthingrevolutions.org.uk/files/PPR445.pdf

[Chippy Minton]

If you don't fancy reading the 51 page report, here's an article about it, which is where the '60-75%' figure comes from: Risky cycling rarely to blame for bike accidents, study finds

[Loz]

Ha - the Guardian happily prints the output from the Fawcett Society, so accuracy of stats isn't their strong point!

I suspect they just happily regurgitated the press release from 'cyclists' lobby group CTC', since the report does not mention that stat at any point. Plus the 16-24 age group seems to have been somehow classed as a non-adult group, because I suppose it didn't fit the 60%-75% story, especially in the fatal accident category. Plus the article talks of 'responsibility', rather than the reports more measured 'contributor factor'.

[Chippy Minton]

Darn stats eh! I'm not a cyclist so I have no first hand experience of the extent of dangerous drivers in London, but I do think it makes sense to allow cyclists in bus lanes.

Griffin seems to have little regard for the law that prevents his minicabs driving in these lanes and has proven in the past that if he gets his drivers to simply ignore the law, it's possible not to get prosecuted. It wouldn't surprise me if Boris gets back in he'll allow them in anyway.

[taper]

The irony is that Addisson Lee are near the top of any cyclist's danger list in London. His drivers are notorious for driving like aholes and are a far greater danger to the public than the odd dickhead on a bike.

As for "Rubbish, snowy", it's not rubbish it's a fact in law (although ALee are currently testing that law in the High Court). Minicabs using bus lanes would be a retrogade step in London, both for the speed of buses and the safety of cyclists.

But as you say, he's probably making this remarks for free publicity. He will regret attracting the ire of London's (admittedly rather self righteous at times) cyclists though.

[snowy]

Loz Wrote:

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> Rubbish, snowy. Black cabs ferry carry people for

> money. Minicabs ferry people for money. Both are

> regulated services. There is no difference.

> Except in price, of course.

>

But that's the point. That price is set and managed by TFL.

A private hire company such as AL (other cab companies are freely available) can set their own pricing according to their whim and business model.

Which is why black cabs are defined as 'part of the public transport system'. You pay for a bus at a set TFL managed price, you pay for a black cab in the same way.

There's nothing stopping AL from setting their own prices to make more profit to cover the loss of income of not being allowed in the bus lane. In fact they do with waiting and loading charges.

> Now if you are arguing that black cabs (and by

> extension, minicabs) not be allowed in bus lanes

> at all, then I wouldn't disagree.

How would black cabs pick up fares when you're stood on a bus lane?

As for the DKH example of why cyclists shouldn't be allowed in bus lanes - what you're suggesting is that a slower moving road user is put in the right hand lane, still obstructing cars, and also encouraging buses to undertake them. Doesn't sound very sensible to me. Replace bicycle with 'horse' or mobility scooter...

[Chippy Minton]

TfL have won their injuction at the High Court today.

Cyclists 1 - 0 Addision Lee.

I bet it goes to extra time though!

[Loz]

How would black cabs pick up fares when you're stood on a bus lane?

Why do you want cabs sitting in bus lanes, while they sort out change, receipt, etc? The point of bus lanes is to keep buses moving. Having a black cab sitting there for a minute or so is just not sensible.

[Chippy Minton]

If the point of bus lanes is to keep buses moving, it can't be sensible to allow tens of thousands of minicabs in them.

[Loz]

Or let any cabs in, then. Which I don't have a problem with. But they have to be fair and consistent - let some in, let all in... or keep them all out.

[Mooro]

Yes, of course we will, at least those of us who already use Addison Lee, since they provide a damn good service at a very competitive rate. No interest in what the top man's views on cyclists are.

[uncleglen]

A black cab with one passenger is on a par with a chauffeur driven limo- if any cabs are allowed in the bus lane then it should be hospital cabs.