LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Spartacus]

It's a real shame that the cross river partnership failed in their bid to bring trams back to Peckham town centre and up to north of the river via Holborn ten plus years ago.

My impression at the time was that local vocals both at this end of the route (mainly objecting to the depot being in the town centre) and at various points along the route caused it to lose support.

Cross river were considering extending it to meet up with the Croydon tram if it was implemented

How short sighted were people in objecting to it as it would have been a clean green transport method helping to reduce our reliance on cars.

[heartblock]

Who objected? Trams would be great.

[heartblock]

Who objected? Trams would be great.

[Spartacus]

heartblock Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Who objected? Trams would be great.

I agree , and I did at the time but ho hum others didn't

Maybe try contacting the cross river partnership ( https://crossriverpartnership.org/ ) to find out more about what happened and why it was shelved.

[Spartacus]

heartblock Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Who objected? Trams would be great.

I agree , and I did at the time but ho hum others didn't

Maybe try contacting the cross river partnership ( https://crossriverpartnership.org/ ) to find out more about what happened and why it was shelved.

[Orange owl]

Kk I think you will find houses on Elsie made that price last year nothing to do with road closures just perhaps because it?s a very nice road. Also a bit silly to assume that all the people who live there agree with the closures they don?t

[Orange owl]

Kk I think you will find houses on Elsie made that price last year nothing to do with road closures just perhaps because it?s a very nice road. Also a bit silly to assume that all the people who live there agree with the closures they don?t

[Otto2]

Hello - Here's a Guardian article...

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/mar/25/traffic-wars-who-will-win-the-battle-for-city-streets

[Otto2]

Hello - Here's a Guardian article...

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/mar/25/traffic-wars-who-will-win-the-battle-for-city-streets

[legalalien]

Worth watching the discussions on trams at last night?s cabinet meeting in YouTube, it was a bit fractious throughout - key Labour concern seems to be that LD focus on trams doesn?t dilute push for Bakerloo extension. Not at all traffic related , but the discussion about the ?golden goodbye? payment to Cllr Pollak. Watch from 3:26:30 onward to about 3:35 and see what you think...

[legalalien]

Worth watching the discussions on trams at last night?s cabinet meeting in YouTube, it was a bit fractious throughout - key Labour concern seems to be that LD focus on trams doesn?t dilute push for Bakerloo extension. Not at all traffic related , but the discussion about the ?golden goodbye? payment to Cllr Pollak. Watch from 3:26:30 onward to about 3:35 and see what you think...

[Nigello]

I was so excited by the idea of a cross-river tram (having seen them in work in Sheffield and Manchester) and was disappointed when it was dropped (by Bori, no?) They are expensive, so what about a guided bus route instead, or trolley buses? Neither, though, has that continental feel that councillors and officers love so much!

[Nigello]

I was so excited by the idea of a cross-river tram (having seen them in work in Sheffield and Manchester) and was disappointed when it was dropped (by Bori, no?) They are expensive, so what about a guided bus route instead, or trolley buses? Neither, though, has that continental feel that councillors and officers love so much!

[malumbu]

New tram lines can be horrendously expensive - I expect that many areas in investing in tram/light rail have been able to use some of the existing railway lines, including those that had closed in recent decades. I'm not sure about how in London investment in new tram lines compare with the ginormous investment in cross rail. I do look forward to that opening, and in particular sorting out Whitechapel Station. Public transport for me was transformed when we had access to the tube network through the Overground. If I was to have one grump it would be the Overground briefly going into Zone 1, bumping up your costs if you go cross town. This was part of the deal in terms of revenue generation. This was also a double edged sword in encouraging gentrification, demographic changes, but there again do we prefer the old or new Peckham? We are still very hampered in London through the current road/rail infrastructure and population density. When we lost our tram lines that mode had become increasingly unpopular and buses were far more comfortable. Fast forward 50 years and my first trip on a Manchester tram was wow, and they were so much more 'sexy' for the travelling public than buses. (with thanks to the London Transport Museum and the various on line publications I receive). Doubt whether my personal recollections help the debate (and it would be good if it was a debate), on this thread.

Back to the subject in hand two further articles, both on a cycling website but still interesting irrespective of your views:

Survey showing that many are ambivalent, slightly more with strong views support LTNs 14% vs 9%. I'm ignoring the headline that supporters of LTNs outnumber opponents 3:1 as I suspect there is some bias ("You do support the environment don't you"). Having said that not seen full details of the survey. And yes I have designed and commissioned my own surveys in the past working with some of the national market research companies (and supported by colleagues who knew far more about survey design). https://road.cc/content/news/backers-london-ltns-outnumber-opponents-three-one-281961

The same publication has a go at the BBC for stirring things up with it's tabloid style articles, furthering entrenched views - definitely worth a read: https://road.cc/content/news/peer-bbc-ltn-report-perpetuated-falsehoods-281845

[malumbu]

New tram lines can be horrendously expensive - I expect that many areas in investing in tram/light rail have been able to use some of the existing railway lines, including those that had closed in recent decades. I'm not sure about how in London investment in new tram lines compare with the ginormous investment in cross rail. I do look forward to that opening, and in particular sorting out Whitechapel Station. Public transport for me was transformed when we had access to the tube network through the Overground. If I was to have one grump it would be the Overground briefly going into Zone 1, bumping up your costs if you go cross town. This was part of the deal in terms of revenue generation. This was also a double edged sword in encouraging gentrification, demographic changes, but there again do we prefer the old or new Peckham? We are still very hampered in London through the current road/rail infrastructure and population density. When we lost our tram lines that mode had become increasingly unpopular and buses were far more comfortable. Fast forward 50 years and my first trip on a Manchester tram was wow, and they were so much more 'sexy' for the travelling public than buses. (with thanks to the London Transport Museum and the various on line publications I receive). Doubt whether my personal recollections help the debate (and it would be good if it was a debate), on this thread.

Back to the subject in hand two further articles, both on a cycling website but still interesting irrespective of your views:

Survey showing that many are ambivalent, slightly more with strong views support LTNs 14% vs 9%. I'm ignoring the headline that supporters of LTNs outnumber opponents 3:1 as I suspect there is some bias ("You do support the environment don't you"). Having said that not seen full details of the survey. And yes I have designed and commissioned my own surveys in the past working with some of the national market research companies (and supported by colleagues who knew far more about survey design). https://road.cc/content/news/backers-london-ltns-outnumber-opponents-three-one-281961

The same publication has a go at the BBC for stirring things up with it's tabloid style articles, furthering entrenched views - definitely worth a read: https://road.cc/content/news/peer-bbc-ltn-report-perpetuated-falsehoods-281845

[Nigello]

Not enough walking, IMHO. I (used to, pre C-19) lots of young, able-bodied people crowding at bus stops on the way to town and wondered how many could walk to the station if that was their destination or to a stop after the station when they'd be more likely to get a seat. It's so easy for the vast majority of people who go to work and yet it's not got the option to wear Lycra or buy magazines about it so the marketeers don't want to know.

[Nigello]

Not enough walking, IMHO. I (used to, pre C-19) lots of young, able-bodied people crowding at bus stops on the way to town and wondered how many could walk to the station if that was their destination or to a stop after the station when they'd be more likely to get a seat. It's so easy for the vast majority of people who go to work and yet it's not got the option to wear Lycra or buy magazines about it so the marketeers don't want to know.

[legalalien]

At the moment it?s unclear whether TfL have enough money to finish Crossrail, it seems: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/tfl-admits-london-underground-projects-20199323.amp

The tram proposal has been put forward in the context of it looking increasingly unlikely that the Bakerloo line extension will happen any time soon. Which is a problem as the council is relying on the BLE to hit ?more homes? and other commitments.

[legalalien]

At the moment it?s unclear whether TfL have enough money to finish Crossrail, it seems: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/tfl-admits-london-underground-projects-20199323.amp

The tram proposal has been put forward in the context of it looking increasingly unlikely that the Bakerloo line extension will happen any time soon. Which is a problem as the council is relying on the BLE to hit ?more homes? and other commitments.

[dan b]

Spartacus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's a real shame that the cross river partnership

> failed in their bid to bring trams back to Peckham

> town centre and up to north of the river via

> Holborn ten plus years ago.

>

> My impression at the time was that local vocals

> both at this end of the route (mainly objecting to

> the depot being in the town centre) and at various

> points along the route caused it to lose support.

>

>

> Cross river were considering extending it to meet

> up with the Croydon tram if it was implemented

>

> How short sighted were people in objecting to it

> as it would have been a clean green transport

> method helping to reduce our reliance on cars.

I have lived in cities with great tram networks, but the proposed cross river tram was never going to work well. It would necessarily be routed along roads and be held up in congestion like buses, and would replicate the route served by the 343 and 136. Also the plans as they evolved meant that only the Peckham to Waterloo section would be built first, and then they hoped to get Camden and other boroughs to agree to having trams and following suit.

Notably the planned southern route to Peckham would go down Heygate St and Thurlow St and miss out Walworth Road and Camberwell completely so query how useful it would be for many areas.

As for vocal locals objecting, well the plan was to demolish the entire Bussey Building/Copeland Park site to build a giant tram depot which would have had disastrous effects on Peckham town centre. Some of the buildings around Peckham High St would also have had to go. It took a lot of lobbying and petitioning to persuade councillors and TFL to look for other sites.

[dan b]

Spartacus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's a real shame that the cross river partnership

> failed in their bid to bring trams back to Peckham

> town centre and up to north of the river via

> Holborn ten plus years ago.

>

> My impression at the time was that local vocals

> both at this end of the route (mainly objecting to

> the depot being in the town centre) and at various

> points along the route caused it to lose support.

>

>

> Cross river were considering extending it to meet

> up with the Croydon tram if it was implemented

>

> How short sighted were people in objecting to it

> as it would have been a clean green transport

> method helping to reduce our reliance on cars.

I have lived in cities with great tram networks, but the proposed cross river tram was never going to work well. It would necessarily be routed along roads and be held up in congestion like buses, and would replicate the route served by the 343 and 136. Also the plans as they evolved meant that only the Peckham to Waterloo section would be built first, and then they hoped to get Camden and other boroughs to agree to having trams and following suit.

Notably the planned southern route to Peckham would go down Heygate St and Thurlow St and miss out Walworth Road and Camberwell completely so query how useful it would be for many areas.

As for vocal locals objecting, well the plan was to demolish the entire Bussey Building/Copeland Park site to build a giant tram depot which would have had disastrous effects on Peckham town centre. Some of the buildings around Peckham High St would also have had to go. It took a lot of lobbying and petitioning to persuade councillors and TFL to look for other sites.

[Nigello]

Express busways are efficient and cheap and have a feel of trams/light rail without the costs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit - again, though, not prestigious enough for civic leaders who always have an eye on what their peers are doing.

[Nigello]

Express busways are efficient and cheap and have a feel of trams/light rail without the costs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit - again, though, not prestigious enough for civic leaders who always have an eye on what their peers are doing.

[Rockets]

Legal - my goodness me, that council meeting all went a bit Jackie Weaver but the subject matter is far more concerning. So disgraced councillor Leo Pollack got a/is going to get golden pay-off form the council - that is outrageous. The treatment of the LD councillors by Cllr Williams and the other Labour councillors is shocking and I do hope the council will investigate the accusations of bullying laid at their door. This council appears out of control and has so little opposition it behaves like it can do what it wants when it wants.

The fact it is the only council in the country offering golden pay-offs for a disgraced councillor is beyond reproach - I was shocked when I saw the supportive messages from other councillors when Leo Pollack was forced out of office after the investigation into his behaviour and it seems that not only did he have glowing praise from his comrades ringing in his ears but he is also leaving with a pocket full of tax-payers money.

[Rockets]

Legal - my goodness me, that council meeting all went a bit Jackie Weaver but the subject matter is far more concerning. So disgraced councillor Leo Pollack got a/is going to get golden pay-off form the council - that is outrageous. The treatment of the LD councillors by Cllr Williams and the other Labour councillors is shocking and I do hope the council will investigate the accusations of bullying laid at their door. This council appears out of control and has so little opposition it behaves like it can do what it wants when it wants.

The fact it is the only council in the country offering golden pay-offs for a disgraced councillor is beyond reproach - I was shocked when I saw the supportive messages from other councillors when Leo Pollack was forced out of office after the investigation into his behaviour and it seems that not only did he have glowing praise from his comrades ringing in his ears but he is also leaving with a pocket full of tax-payers money.