LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Abe_froeman]

The bus pulls in at the bus stop just like it does everywhere else.

[richard tudor]

Abe_froeman Wrote:

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> There are so many alternatives that would increase

> public transport amenity but the cycle lobby have

> somehow got the council's ear and persuaded them

> that these LTNs (that go nowhere) will force

> everyone to see the light and take up cycling.

>

> They could have improved the buses on East Dulwich

> Grove and Lordship Lane by taking out some parking

> and putting a bus lane right down the middle of

> the road, that operates one way in the morning

> rush hour and the other way in the evening.

>

> All those car drivers sitting in a queue of

> traffic being overtaken by bus after bus after bus

> might then think again about taking their children

> to school in the car.

So if you want to go North in the morning how do you go north in the afternoon if it is one way?

[Spartacus]

There was a system near Hamburg airport which acted as a middle lane to relive traffic pressure

In the morning it operated in one direction, then for half an hour after lunch it closed and reopened in the opposite direction so it acted as a tidal flow for the peak traffic

Abe's concept isn't far wrong with a tidal system for buses so that in the morning a 1am till 2pm bus lane towards central London could operate and cars have to use the central tidal flow lane only, with the evening switching to a 3pm till midnight bus lane operating out from central London and cars going the opposite way in the tidal flow lane.

Downside is most British drivers would get confused and complain about bus lane fines but in narrowish roads I could see it working. But then again I'm not a council highways engineer so what do I know !

[alice]

Maybe the bus route could go down Melbourne making in one way.

[exdulwicher]

There was a system near Hamburg airport which acted as a middle lane to relive traffic pressure

In the morning it operated in one direction, then for half an hour after lunch it closed and reopened in the opposite direction so it acted as a tidal flow for the peak traffic

There's a few in the UK. Cardiff has had one for decades on the main road north of the city centre. Overhead gantry with red ❌ and green ⬇. During the changeover, the middle lane remains on ❌ in both directions for about 15 mins.

Steep fines for driving in it under ❌ conditions.

There's an awful lot that can be done with more intelligent traffic signalling. My pet bugbear is driving along at night, deserted roads and coming to a set of lights they go red. Stop, wait for maybe 2 mins while the opposite set go green (nothing there to go through), pedestrian phase goes green (no one around to cross) and then finally, your set goes green again. A few sensors and some basic AI would solve all of that.

On the continent, a lot of quieter lights (junctions in small towns etc) go to a phase of flashing amber overnight. It basically means no-one has right of way, slow down, be careful etc and on quiet streets it works very well. If the system senses traffic overloading it, it'll revert to normal traffic light status.

You can do similar with speeding. Drive to the law and you get a wave of green lights; if you speed between them the lights turn red forcing you to stop. Road design facilitating and rewarding good behaviour.

[richard tudor]

Thought we had a sensible system already. Bus lane for buses and bikes the other lane for cars.

No independent cycle lanes.

Worked perfectly before the cyclist will just have to revert to the old tried and tested ways and use the bus lane.

[BrandNewGuy]

alice Wrote:

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> Maybe the bus route could go down Melbourne making

> in one way.

The 37 used to run along Melbourne Grove between EDG and Grove Vale ? parking was half on the kerb/pavement on one side to allow space.

[heartblock]

As Melbourne is now an LTN, why not remove all parking except for some disabled bays and a few for business visitors. Then the 37 can run down Melbourne. I?m sure the residents will support as this will encourage a modal change for people living down that road to not use their cars.

[alice]

Excellent idea. Trial it there. Then then use same idea down court lane.

[sally buying]

Don't forget to make it a quietway and spine to take cyclists of the main road.

[RoundTable]

Since we?re at it, why not just ban people from owning cars outright?

[Penguin68]

That's what Southwark wants to do. Its declared policy is to drive out privately owned vehicles from Southwark.

[Abe_froeman]

Yes my bus lane would work like that Hamburg scheme but it would be permanently down the middle of the road.

Car drivers wouldn't need to worry about confusion because they would never be allowed in it and the bus drivers would know about the timings from their route training

[sally buying]

What would happen when drivers stop in the middle lane state we are waiting here to even out the service? Bus traffic jams

[Abe_froeman]

ha ha!

[alice]

When buses run smoothly ?evening out? doesn?t exist.

[first mate]

Is there any data on how many people living within each LTN own and use a car?

heartblock Wrote:

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> As Melbourne is now an LTN, why not remove all

> parking except for some disabled bays and a few

> for business visitors. Then the 37 can run down

> Melbourne. I?m sure the residents will support as

> this will encourage a modal change for people

> living down that road to not use their cars.

[heartblock]

Count the cars on Calton and Gilkes and then add one extra for the car at the second home in...Suffolk, Lake District, Devon....and one in the garage. I?ll have a look to see if I can find online data later.

[SpringTime]

I just picked this up, sorry if a re-post:

https://edbusinesses.eventbrite.co.uk/

[slarti b2]

SpringTime Wrote:

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> I just picked this up, sorry if a re-post: https://edbusinesses.eventbrite.co.uk/

Presumably this is to do with the Dulwich Streetspace review? The Council has given the impression that they have been consulting with local businesses to find out how the road closures are affecting them but I may be wrong.

I have heard that businesses in Dulwich Village have been hit really badly, footfall has dropped massively as people avoid that area because of the road closures and fear of being fined. Probably the same in East Dulwich.

However, highly unlikley that the Council or COuncillors will listen to anything they are told.

[Earl Aelfheah]

So business in the Village is suffering from there being fewer cars, and Lordship Lane business is suffering from there being more?

[heartblock]

Exactly. Closed roads cause problems for businesses inside and outside of the closed road, couldn?t have put it better myself.

[Abe_froeman]

In both instances it is very difficult and inconvenient to get the shops . In one case because there is no public transport access and private cars are now banned and in the other due to the huge amounts of traffic generated by the so-called LTNs causing huge delays to both private and public transport.

[Penguin68]

So business in the Village is suffering from there being fewer cars, and Lordship Lane business is suffering from there being more?

Both sets of businesses have developed and succeeded with specific business models - which include footfall, ease of access and so on. Change the models for both and you change their profitability - over time new models may emerge (models which might, in the case of Dulwich Village, equate to no businesses at all, or far fewer) - but immediately both groups are quite justified in saying that the council has broken their business by creating a precipitous, rather than a gradual, change to their models - gradual change you can adapt to, over time, precipitous change is much more difficult to cope with.

[DulwichCentral]

Would that be gradual change like erm a global pandemic?

Business models and marketing strategies are currently disrupted *worldwide*.

But hey - what's happened in little old Dulwich Village is all Southwark Councils fault.