Its a minefield...

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

I agree and it?s so important that every school adopts something like that, as the headmaster stated ?We won?t ever have a fully inclusive society if we don?t tackle racism/unconscious bias in school? or something along those lines. It?s why I?m passionate about things like the https://www.theblackcurriculum.com/our-work or the course implemented at that school to be made compulsory in the UK. Our children are the only ones that will be able to stop unconscious bias in the future. The Government however has rejected The Black Curriculum?s petition by stating that each school is in charge of their own curriculum so they don?t feel they need to discuss changes. It seems like unless the school has a great Head like the one in that programme or parents put pressure on their schools to adjust their curriculum to tackle racism/history, things will never change.

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> DulwichBorn&Bred Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > A really good watch and educational: The school

> > that tried to end racism.

> >

> https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-school-tha

>

> > t-tried-to-end-racism

>

> I thought this programme was thought provoking (in

> a good way). What I found most interesting is how

> the already established differing levels of

> confidence affected the thought process of the

> kids. But I also came away with hope. Children are

> far smarter than we sometimes give them credit

> for, and at that age, they have a simple approach

> to life that says everything must make logical

> sense. That is a key impetus of learning at that

> age anyway. I really liked the way the programme

> sought to empower everyone around their culture

> and identity. The key to ending racism is exactly

> that - finding value in our own culture and

> identity, as much as others. Tackling inequality

> in turn, is then something everyone can work

> together on.

[Spartacus]

Tongue in cheek but if impersonating someone you aren't is wrong (black / brown face , Apu in the Simpson's being voices by a white person) should we then take this view further and stop drag acts as it degrades women who have spent years struggling against male oppression to get equal rights ?

Should Dame Edna be finally put out of her misery ?

Should Drag shows be defrocked ?

And finally can we all agree that Mrs Browns Boys just isn't funny ?

Whilst it is tongue in cheek and there is a serious issue with using humorous costumes / face paint to put someone down , the real question is where should it stop ?

[JohnL]

Lovely BLM advert on Sky News/Sky Sport at the moment

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

That is lovely! ❤️

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lovely BLM advert on Sky News/Sky Sport at the

> moment

>

>

> e=youtu.be

[Blah Blah]

Yes I can agree Mrs Brown's Boys isn't that funny Spartacus ;) It feels very dated to me but my cousin loves it, so there is an audience for it.

This is where it is impossible to avoid the complexity of all of this. Drag and especially pantomime drag, feeds into the gender constructs that for example, render older women as unattractive and/or invisible (irregardless of whether they actually are or not). But it is complex because in many family units, the eldest female is the matriarch, who often rules the roost. So we often also see the matriarch as a character in drag. This is where Mrs Brown's Boys sits.

And what part does the history of theater play too? Men historically have played female roles, and not always as a form of satire either. Similarly, the theaters of Victorian England had many an impersonator. Women who assumed the character of wandering dandies, or city gents, whilst singing a song or two. There is also the further layer of sexual orientation. In a culture where homosexuality was illegal, theater was often the safest environment for those who did not fit into any heteronormative norm. The same was true for all kinds of people outcast for all kinds of reasons. There is no one answer to your question on degradation Spartacus, for all of those reasons.

Feminists would argue that men ridicule women they do not find attractive, and there is some truth to that. Neuroscience now has research that suggests we are hardwired as a species to have aversion to faces we do not find asymmetrical for example, even when we are not trying to display any aversion. And it had been understood for a long time that our DNA is wired to seek out seemingly physically healthy partners. How does that play on a gender basis? There are nuanced differences there, but all genders have aversion indicators. So there are some biological things underlying some unconscious bias. Because it is unconscious, can we ever be entirely free of it?

In my opinion, there are things that can definitely be tackled, like inequality of opportunity. We can ask the questions around upward social mobility, but the answers will often draw on a wide range of inequalities that go beyond ethnicity, gender etc. Answering the question of how to stop unconscious bias however, is impossible to answer. And I would also say that culture aversion is just as strong a factor in unconscious bias. We never really talk about culture in debates around racism, but we should.

[diable rouge]

[TheCat]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lovely BLM advert on Sky News/Sky Sport at the

> moment

>

>

> e=youtu.be

Rupert Murdoch is a softy at heart:).....

[TheCat]

Pie Nails it again....

[ianr]

Blah Blah wrote on 27 June:

> Neuroscience now has research that

> suggests we are hardwired as a species

> to have aversion to faces we do not

> find asymmetrical for example, even

> when we are not trying to display

> any aversion.

Do you have any useful references?

[seenbeen]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Pie Nails it again....

>

>

Excellent- and he did it in 5 minutes and 13 seconds.

Perhaps he'll write a book Celsius 1200!

[JohnL]

ianr Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Blah Blah wrote on 27 June:

>

> > Neuroscience now has research that

> > suggests we are hardwired as a species

> > to have aversion to faces we do not

> > find asymmetrical for example, even

> > when we are not trying to display

> > any aversion.

>

> Do you have any useful references?

You don't need proof when you've got Jin of BTS

https://thehimalayantimes.com/entertainment/dutch-artists-team-picks-btss-jin-as-the-worlds-most-perfect-male-face/

[Alec1]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So....as a white person I'm apparently racist if I

> dont 'understand that i'll never

> understand'....and even if I try to understand,

> its also racist to ask a person of colour (the

> people who do understand) to explain it to me....

>

> Also...Its 'racial profiling' if I assume that any

> person of colour understands and can explain it to

> me, but not racial profiling to assume that i (as

> not a person of colour) will never understand.

>

> Also, good intentions arent enough, but try

> getting involved and you're probably a

> self-appointed White ally or have a white savior

> complex.

>

> (See attached for more)

>

>

> For clarity....the police/race issue in the US is

> clearly a serious problem; as is racism in any

> form, and we clearly all need to find ways to

> combat racial prejudice as a society.....but so

> many serious discussions on this issue are being

> hampered when the woke-police continue to add

> layer upon layer of verboten

> language/questions/behaviour.

>

> I beleive its got to the point that we (more often

> than not) cant even have a discussion about it?

> I've seen people taken down on television/social

> media for not blindly buying into every new

> catchphrase associated with this issue. (im sure

> someone will brand me racist for this thread)

>

> But....dont we tell children to ask as many

> questions as possible? dont we use phrases like

> "asking questions is how you learn' and 'there are

> no stupid questions'?

>

> I dont think im alone in wanting an open

> discussion on some of the more contentious views

> around this issue, but also not alone in that I

> dont want to be branded a racist for doing so. So

> - I'll just stay silent like a good many other

> people. And probabbly unfort be branded a rascist

> for doing that too.....

It's up to all of us to educate ourselves and our children, not expect black people to educate us. Let's be honest, the BAME community have been TRYING to educate us, get us to not just listen, but to really hear them, for how many decades? Even now, in 2020 we are still not hearing them.

Whether it's about the colour of someone's skin, race, religion, sexuality, gender, disability it's up to us, the people who want/need to learn to take on the responsibility for OUR education. It is NOT up to an oppressed, marginalised group to educate us.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Thank you, you get it. It?s exhausting.

Alec1 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > So....as a white person I'm apparently racist if

> I

> > dont 'understand that i'll never

> > understand'....and even if I try to understand,

> > its also racist to ask a person of colour (the

> > people who do understand) to explain it to

> me....

> >

> > Also...Its 'racial profiling' if I assume that

> any

> > person of colour understands and can explain it

> to

> > me, but not racial profiling to assume that i

> (as

> > not a person of colour) will never understand.

> >

> > Also, good intentions arent enough, but try

> > getting involved and you're probably a

> > self-appointed White ally or have a white

> savior

> > complex.

> >

> > (See attached for more)

> >

> >

> > For clarity....the police/race issue in the US

> is

> > clearly a serious problem; as is racism in any

> > form, and we clearly all need to find ways to

> > combat racial prejudice as a society.....but so

> > many serious discussions on this issue are

> being

> > hampered when the woke-police continue to add

> > layer upon layer of verboten

> > language/questions/behaviour.

> >

> > I beleive its got to the point that we (more

> often

> > than not) cant even have a discussion about it?

> > I've seen people taken down on

> television/social

> > media for not blindly buying into every new

> > catchphrase associated with this issue. (im

> sure

> > someone will brand me racist for this thread)

> >

> > But....dont we tell children to ask as many

> > questions as possible? dont we use phrases like

> > "asking questions is how you learn' and 'there

> are

> > no stupid questions'?

> >

> > I dont think im alone in wanting an open

> > discussion on some of the more contentious

> views

> > around this issue, but also not alone in that I

> > dont want to be branded a racist for doing so.

> So

> > - I'll just stay silent like a good many other

> > people. And probabbly unfort be branded a

> rascist

> > for doing that too.....

>

>

> It's up to all of us to educate ourselves and our

> children, not expect black people to educate us.

> Let's be honest, the BAME community have been

> TRYING to educate us, get us to not just listen,

> but to really hear them, for how many decades?

> Even now, in 2020 we are still not hearing them.

>

> Whether it's about the colour of someone's skin,

> race, religion, sexuality, gender, disability it's

> up to us, the people who want/need to learn to

> take on the responsibility for OUR education. It

> is NOT up to an oppressed, marginalised group to

> educate us.

[JohnL]

I worry a little about Sir Kier sitting on the fence.

(he was distinguishing BLM (the movement) from BLM (the organisation) - is that what you have to do to get near power in the UK you see :(. )

However, the fact only right wing newspapers are reporting this when I search means it could well be newspaper froth.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/starmer-caught-in-black-lives-matter-storm/30/06/

[TheCat]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I worry a little about Sir Kier sitting on the

> fence.

>

> (he was distinguishing BLM (the movement) from BLM

> (the organisation) - is that what you have to do

> to get near power in the UK you see :(. )

>

> However, the fact only right wing newspapers are

> reporting this when I search means it could well

> be newspaper froth.

>

> https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/starmer

> -caught-in-black-lives-matter-storm/30/06/

I'd be fascinated to hear what people who (self-proclaimed) 'get it'...like DulwichBornandBred think about the slogan 'Defund the Police'???...now that various people (lead by Sir Kier) are backing away from BLM (the organisation) as a result of their use of that slogan...

To use logic cited earlier in this thread in response to some of my comments....if this is the language that has been chosen, then I guess you feel it's unreasonable that BLM had to tweet to explain what they 'actually' mean by that phrase.....and it's just those that need 'education' who are 'in denial' of what 'defund the police' 'really' means?

[diable rouge]

Successive Tory Govs managed to 'defund the police' to the tune of 20,000 less police officers. Just saying...

[TheCat]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Successive Tory Govs managed to 'defund the

> police' to the tune of 20,000 less police

> officers. Just saying...

Indeed. And didn't most of the left wing progressives within the Labour party think that was a bad thing?. Strange - given some of them are now attacking Sir Kier (see tweets from Warwick Labour branch for example) for his stance on this

[diable rouge]

There is a difference between the two though, The Tory cuts were just that. 'Defund the police' proposes cutting back on police costs and redistributing to community projects. I'm not advocating DTP as I think any cuts to the police is the last thing we need right now...

[TheCat]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There is a difference between the two though, The

> Tory cuts were just that. 'Defund the police'

> proposes cutting back on police costs and

> redistributing to community projects. I'm not

> advocating DTP as I think any cuts to the police

> is the last thing we need right now...

Yep. Totally agree there's a difference....im just (very unsubtley!) revisting my earlier point on this thread about the effectiveness of slogans in the context of BLM.....and how ineffective some of them are. Given BLM don't 'really' mean 'defund the police', they shouldn't really be surprised when people don't 'get it'!!!

[seenbeen]

One of the policies of the Trotskyite Workers' Revolutionary Party was to replace the police with a 'Workers' Militia'

[JohnL]

Premier League has more or less stated what Kier Starmer said so I expect that will become the standard line.

He seems to think things out so carefully and then Boris just calls him a flip flopping nincompoop (or something similar) at PMQs

[TheCat]

So....interesting.....how many people that insist others 'dothework'.....know what CRT is......

I.e. there are other theories.......

https://www.theequianoproject.com/thought-leaders-list

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Thought of a new slogan. Black Lives Matter Too. BLMT. Is that more clearer? So it?s not saying ?just? black lives.

[JohnL]

DulwichBorn&Bred Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Thought of a new slogan. Black Lives Matters Too.

> BLMT. Is that more clearer? So it?s not saying

> ?just? black lives.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Black-Lives-Matter-Too/dp/1524601209

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

I?m not original then! :)

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> DulwichBorn&Bred Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Thought of a new slogan. Black Lives Matters

> Too.

> > BLMT. Is that more clearer? So it?s not saying

> > ?just? black lives.

>

> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Black-Lives-Matter-To

> o/dp/1524601209