General Strike ?

[Chippy Minton]

But you're still trying to imply the 80% are against it which isn't true.

If these "sensible teachers" that are the majority are so embarrassed, why did less than 5% of the membership vote against the action?

[DaveR]

"But you're still trying to imply the 80% are against it which isn't true.

If these "sensible teachers" that are the majority are so embarrassed, why less than 5% of the membership vote against the action?"

Chippy, what I said was:

"80% of the NUT's membership did not vote for a strike"

which is just a fact. The obvious inference is that the majority of that 80%, and therefore a sizeable majority of NUT members, are not sufficiently supportive of strike action to have taken the trouble to vote in favour of it. If someone asks you a yes-no question and you decide to ignore them and go to the pub instead it must say something about your interest in/commitment to the question at hand?

In any event, you object to my using the phrase 'teaching unions' because you would like us to believe that strike action has mass support throughout the profession, as opposed to being largely driven by union leadership/activists. We may disagree on that, but the raw figures are not going to determine the issue either way - they just are what they are. And to be honest, it's a minor point. The big point is that there is absolutely no justification for a strike beyond a plea for preferential treatment compared to every other poor sod in the country.

[LocalTeacher]

aaaah daver you clearly have anger issues

and some previous http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,793686,794602#msg-794602

whats wrong with other people having what they deserve

not enough hugs?

do you not get what you deserve ?

whatever your job is (im assuming you work) im sure your really great at it and really enjoy it and i hope that lots of people benefit from your perfect prose and pedantic nature

the majority of the parents at my school are behind the teachers

they realise how important it is to have good staff and resources

maybe you should have a chat with one of your childrens teachers and see what they think

you never know it could be me............

[Kes]

LocalTeacher - you say that anyone who argues there is a financial crisis, or an aging population has been taken in by the government/daily mail (actually presumably every government and major media outlet globaly) - But what are your sources? Where are you getting your information from, when so many people have clearly missed something?

I have no love at all for the current government and wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw Eric Pickles but I see evidence for the existance of a financial crisis in almost everyone I know. Have we all just been duped in your opinion?

[Chippy Minton]

DaveR Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The obvious inference is

> that the majority of that 80%, and therefore a

> sizeable majority of NUT members, are not

> sufficiently supportive of strike action to have

> taken the trouble to vote in favour of it.

Eh? You might just as well say the majority of that 80% and therefore a sizeable majority of NUT members are not sufficiently unsupportive of strike action to have taken the trouble to vote against it!

You said 80% of the NUT's membership did not vote for a strike - I accept that is a fact. But it is also a fact that less than 5% of the membership voted against it.

> The big point is that there is absolutely

> no justification for a strike beyond a

> plea for preferential treatment compared

> to every other poor sod in the country.

I assume you mean this in a moral sense rather than a technical sense because a 82% yes vote obviously provides the legal mandate to justify a strike (which BTW, hasn't actually been called so this is all still hypothetical). If that's the case then we just have to disagree. Teachers aren't asking for preferential treatment compared to "every other poor sod" - the big point is that there are millions of other poor sods that are also getting screwed!

[DaveR]

"aaaah daver you clearly have anger issues

and some previous"

I think what you mean is that I find it difficult to resist challenging nonsense, and that I have been consistent in my views and arguments over a period of time. Hands up to both of those.

Well done at getting your parents behind you - you're obviously more persuasive in the flesh (so to speak) than in writing. Alternatively, have you considered that maybe they're just being polite?

"perfect prose and pedantic nature"

I make no claims to perfection, but one of my teachers used to say "messy page, messy mind", and it's a pretty reliable guide (unless you're Einstein, I guess, but no danger for either of us there).

[ladywotlunches]

Seems it may not just be Right-wing political ideals that have led to teachers becoming unhappy. There's a massive teacher's strike in Chicago http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/10/usa-chicago-schools-idUSL1E8KA3HY20120910 at the moment and THEY are blaming Obama, who in theory (and I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of US politics) as a Democrat is on the same 'side' as Labour.

As ever, the American Dream sees private alternatives springing up, and older pupils are taking online schooling http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2012/09/chicago-students-go-online-as.html. Hmm, as striking isn't going to solve anything here either, perhaps there's a business opportunity to be had ...? ;-)

[LondonMix]

The strikes in Chicago are about teacher evaluations and jobs for laid-off teachers. They are the only two points in the education reform proposal that are being negotiated. The person leading the charge used to work for the White House for president Obama and the views do reflect the president's agenda.

The issues in Chicago are complex as the teachers are effectively saying that those teachers who work in socio-economically deprived areas should be assessed with a lower bar because under-performance is the result of things outside of the classroom. While you can't just assume the poor can't be taught I do think the system should recognise the additional challenges faced by teachers in those schools.

Also, you don't have to be right-wing to be opposed to the strikes over here. I don't like the current government and consider myself to be socially progressive and centre-left but regarding spending and deficits I try to be pragmatic...

[Chippy Minton]

ladywotlunches Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hmm, as striking isn't going to solve anything here

Lazy, tabloid, Nick Ferrari-esque phrase! Why exactly would a strike not "solve anything" ?

[lucyA1308]

I feel sorry for anyone who is in a job for 40 years for what they think they should get out of it at the end of the day.

Anything could happen between now and then. Why not remind yourself of the reason you went into the profession in the first place (I really hope it wasn't for the pension)

No matter how tired I am after baby teething and toddler antics, breakfast chaos etc. When I get to the schools in which I teach, I am filled with energy and enthusiasm again, because of the energy and enthusiasm which the pupils have.

It is a great job. Enjoy it.

[sophiesofa]

I was on a better wage before but decided the pension would make up in the long run. I became a teacher to do that cheesy thing of making a difference but a deciding factor was the pension and also the holidays (in-case i am lucky enough to have my own kids one day). I'm not on here to have a moan about being a teacher but I will be in the general strike if it happens. I'll also be participating in the 'action short of strike' the Wednesday after next.

apologies for the lack of capitals etc - I'm phone typing!

lucyA1308 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I feel sorry for anyone who is in a job for 40

> years for what they think they should get out of

> it at the end of the day.

>

> Anything could happen between now and then. Why

> not remind yourself of the reason you went into

> the profession in the first place (I really hope

> it wasn't for the pension)

>

> No matter how tired I am after baby teething and

> toddler antics, breakfast chaos etc. When I get to

> the schools in which I teach, I am filled with

> energy and enthusiasm again, because of the energy

> and enthusiasm which the pupils have.

>

> It is a great job. Enjoy it.

[LondonMix]

A sincere (non-attacking) question. What improvements on the gov't offerare the teachers asking for specifically?

[Pugwash]

This is a very difficult area - those of us who work in the public sector are very conscious of cuts in staff which implicate on resources. I along with my colleagues went on a one day strike last year, the first time in my long working life I have ever done this. We did have some concessions around pensions, which UNISON accepted. The next round of cuts in Southwark are coming next financial year. My section have already been told that we are being reduced from 14 staff to 9 from January, but the incoming work will be the same or greater. Like teachers, my team do not stick to their 36 hours a week, it is becoming more frequent to find permanent members of staff working (unpaid) till 7.30 pm in order to process our work as we are dealing with vulnerable people, and our professional pride will not allow us to cut back on this, and also our Code of Conduct and Professional registration require us to meet certain standards or be struck off. In West Sussex last year, schools were increasing class sizes and cutting back on both primary and secondary teachers. In the college where my daughter works in Sussex - they are cutting back on lecturers. Class sizes when I grew up in the 50s and 60s were 35 - 40 kids, there are some areas where this is now becoming the norm. Many of my teacher acquantances spend at least 2 - 3 weeks of their summer holidays, preparing material for the next years curriculum, many of them bring marking home to do and sit up after their own kids have gone to bed, marking work - especially those who are secondary teachers. Although as a parent, I was annoyed when strikes closed schools as this meant losing a day's pay or finding child care, and I did not have sympathetic employers.

This is a difficult decision to make and support - education will suffer during the strike period, but if nothing is done now, education in the future would deteriorate and class sizes increase, and lack of parental choice of schools.

The only thing I can suggest that each school has a group of play leaders who could care for the children for a normal teaching day based in the school so that parent who cannot get childcare have an alternative option.

[LondonMix]

Pugwash, are the teacher strikes about class size and funding for education in addition to their pay / pension? I've been trying to find a detailed statement of aims but on the union's website the only thing I can find is:

"The two biggest teachers' unions in England and Wales are today announcing the first stage of their jointly co-ordinated industrial action in furtherance of their national trade disputes with the Secretary of State for Education over pay, pensions, workload and conditions of service and job loss."

Without knowing what exactly the teachers are asking for so that I can judge for myself if their demands are reasonable, its difficult for me to take a view.

Agree that an alternative for parents would certainly be appreciated!