Major Works by Southwark Council...should I be worried?

[*Tee*]

Hi,

About to embark on purhasing my 1 bed flat through southwark council right to buy scheme and would like to hear views/ opinions/ and past experiences too.

I live in a victorian ground floor conversion flat with 1 other flat above who is still a council tenant. I am trying to think ahead as to what senarios in terms of cost could present itself. The building has double glazing. If anything, i think the possibilities of the roof needing attention could rear its head. I relive nightmares that the council could present me with a huge bill for things that dont need to be done and me not being able to do a thing about it...

keen to hear from anyone who has recently brought from southwark especially a conversion flat.

Many thanks, *Tee*

[verds]

We're in a Victorian conversion where Southwark owns the freehold and they haven't ever bothered us with major works. All we pay for is buildings insurance. They pretty much leave us alone - so they're not quick to do repairs, but also don't ask for money for work they haven't done. Lots better than my last flat, where the freehold was run by a private management company who loved to extract cash.

[PeckhamRose]

Yup, today just got an invoice for ?2,000 plus, which is ?2,000 plus more than we paid them for, for work finished over three years ago! And we have a letter from 18 months ago saying that they had the figures and would get round to invoicing folk accordingly. So the invoice today has taken them 18 months to prepare. Incorrect info on the details in that they listed stuff that they say had been done that had not indeed been done, but it has been invoiced. Lots of work to do there, then. Leasehold Valuation Tribunal and Leaseholders Association of Southwark here we come....

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

I vaguely recall from many years ago, that when my private landlord tried to retrospectively charge me for various things, the solicitor I dealt with quoted some precedent that said charges could not be applied more than 18 months previously.

[buddug]

PeckhamRose: Contact Leasehold Advisory Service on 020 7383 9800, 9am-5pm. They'll tell you exactly where you stand.

[midivydale]

We own the first floor flat of a victorian conversion (downstairs is tenanted by the council) and we need some repairs to the building ie repointing of brick work, repair of sash windows and a new fence etc.

In the past we have carried out repairs ourselves and tried to involve Southwark as little as possible. Does anyone have a good /reasonable contact at Southwark that we can approach in order to get the above looked at?

I would be most grateful. I am extremely concerned about paying for substandard work and would like to speak to anyone who has experience of having their exteriors renovated by a Southwark contractor.

I am not concerned about the costs as such - it needs to be done - but I am very concerned about spending alot of money on work that is substandard.

Another question, has anyone approached the counicl to ask to purchase the loftspace and/or other flat in an Victorian terrace? If so, what was their response and the process?

Any help would be extremely gratefully received.

[PeckhamRose]

Thanks buddug. x

[Cam123]

I'm assuming that you own your flat leasehold and that Southwark is you freeholder? In which case though, why would you expect to be paying for any works? Or do you own a share of the freehold?

If you are a leaseholder, i'd look at the wording of the lease, but I wouldn't be holding my breath over them funding repairs unless the pointing is so bad that the brickwork is being damaged. Plenty of their properties come onto the market which have been left far beyond needing a bit of new pointing. Good luck!

[Carrie]

Midivydale, I have acted for clients in the past who have purchased the loft space from Southwark Council. If they agree to sell you the loft space they would send one of their valuers to value it and draw up a new plan and then you would need a deed of variation to your lease to include the loft within the demise. You would be responsible for all the council's legal and valuation costs as well as your own legal costs. You would also need a deed of substituted security from your lender and they are also likely to charge a fee for that. If you then wanted to convert the loft space 9rather than just using it for storage) you would also need the council's consent for that which would incur another fee!

[buddug]

Councillor James Barber wrote: 'I would ascertain whether 3/4 flats are leasehold and if they are consider buying the freehold. You'd then all be master of your own destiny and not reliant on Southwark COuncil.'

Ah yes, that's the only bit of advice he was able to give me when I was in a similar situation.

Sure, James, we in East Dulwich are all made of money, aren't we? We could buy our freeholds tomorrow (in my case ?5,000). Simples. Just as we all want 'aspirational' supermarkets such as Waitrose here too. James darling, we all know our politicians are completely out of touch with normal people's lives, but could you as a local councillor please get real for once? Or is it too much to ask?

[buddug]

Midivydale: There's an incredibly professional man who comes out to assess repairs and deal with them called Justin Hall. I think he's deputy to Gary Glover at Southwark, another spot-on chap. I don't think you could go wrong with them. Their boss is Christian O'Mahoney, another good egg. They are not pushovers, but they take their jobs seriously, are good at them, and respect leaseholders.

Years ago I had 'pointing' done by Botes, contractors used by Southwark at the time. Turned out, despite the scaffolding, no pointing of any kind was done! They were up there reading comics. A great chap from Southwark called Mike Balfour came out and got another team in to do some real pointing. It wasn't brilliant, it turns out, but at least the job was done. Botes, unsurprisingly, went into administration not long after.

But what I'm finding lately, is that some of the perpetrators of the major works horrors we've all experienced are currently being weeded out. This is due to the fact that many people in top jobs at Southwark council are now very different to those that have gone before. Whether this is due to coincidence, a change in policy or the dawning of the Age of Aquarius I don't know, but I've dealt with some remarkable people, I can't tell you. And the new chief executive herself is quite interesting - she recently featured in the TV series 'Undercover Boss'. I found it very moving.

I think these people have incredibly difficult jobs - trying to ensure that the council operates efficiently and profitably, whether it's in the realm of keeping control of huge building contracts or traffic flow via sensible parking restrictions, while balancing that against real cases of injustice or hardship suffered by the residents of Southwark that they serve. They also have to deal with chancers who are just trying to take the council for a ride. I couldn't do it.

However, there are still far too many of the old-school bullies in middle positions at southwark, some of whom are downright sadists. These you need to avoid at all costs. They are vile and quite evil. Some are borderline sociopaths or worse. Not only are they incompetent, they have zero empathy and no compassion. You would not want to have even one telephone conversation with them - you'd feel dirty for weeks after. Believe me, I've been there. Go right to the top, where the air gets cleaner.

I wish you luck.

[Honoroaky]

Midivydale, we have just started the process of enquiring about purchasing the loft space from Southwark and have been told to expect to pay around ?500 for the fees and valuation before a decision is made. I have to admit that I'm nervous about how much we'll be charged if they agree at all!

Annoyingly as there are only two flats in our converted Victorian house (downstairs is a council tenant) we don't have the option of buying the freehold...

[PeckhamRose]

I just got 45% lopped off my bill, because Southwark Citizens' Advice Bureau, Leaseholder section, had me ask a vital question of the Council's Home Ownership Unit regarding the invoice. Council answered OOPS, we overcharged you. ALWAYS get advice.

[werdna101]

I am an ex-leaseholder and was a street property rep on the home ownership council.

MidIvyDale - You will have to pay for repairs to the property as that are the conditions of Southwark's leases. However, some parts fall outside of major works and some inside, e.g. a fence is not covered as its not structural, windows are included, front doors are not. There are some odd exceptions and inclusions. Consult your lease and speak to the Home Ownership unit for detail.

Southwark contract all major works out to contractors - in the south of the borough this was Morrisons but the council are looking to bring in house and this is in progress.

Morrisons used to just subcontract the ad hoc major repair work on street properties out to local cowboys and their prices were astronomical. They have fixed contractual rates with the council and these are just applied regardless of the job.

As a leaseholder, you can get your own quotes and if they are competitive the council can choose to appoint your contractor. I know a leaseholder who was in a 2 flat block with the other tenanted and he needed the outside of his property painting. The council's major works quote was 4 times that of the cheapest quote he found from other local reputable tradesmen.

Make sure you get your own quotes from builders that you know will do a good job and push the council to use these.

You can do this in 2 ways - get the council to use your contractor for the works by getting quotes and arguing with them like mad. The benefit of this is that they will pick up 50% of the bill here as the cost of the work to the block is divided between the number of flats in the block.

Or apply to the council to undertake all the works yourself (contact Home Ownership Unit). They will want lots of detail about what you intend to do and may request building regs and planning approval if necessary. The benefit of this is you get the work done to your standard in your time frame. However the downside is your works will be "off record" so it doesn't feed into their housing stock assessment so they may decide when planning the next round of major works that your street needs completely repointing and as they haven't done the work then they will actually do it again and charge you for it (you can challenge this but they're under no obligation to listen to you). The likelihood of this happening is low as street properties don't often get nominated for major works as the council has enough on its plate with its 60s/70s estates - but it is a possibility.

I also strongly recommend joining LAS2000 and attending Home Ownership council meetings as they are public forums attended by council officers so you can get to meet the right people, plus other leaseholders who have lots of experience in getting problems solved. Also you can attend your local Tenants and Residents Association meeting and make a fuss there too.

[midivydale]

Werdna101, that is REALLY useful info, thank you to you and all the others that have applied. Truly appreciated.Honoroaky we seem to be in the EXACT same position, we should compare notes, share tips and I suspect tears of frustration.

I will def join LAS2000 and attend the meetings.

Thank you again so much everyone for taking the time to respond. It is very kind.

[MissB6]

I too am intrigued by Werdna101's information. I had over ?1,000 worth of work done to my flat at the Council's insistence. I put up a good fight but was told I could not use my own contractor. After the works were carried out (to an extremely poor standard) I made a Southwark rep come to the property to see the work, which he agreed was terrible. He offered a small discount, but it was marginal. Annoyingly, he then said 'you could have used your own person' (my dad is a qualified tradesman and was livid at the overall charge & the quality). So if this information is correct, I will definitely follow up with the Council. Thanks for info.

[spider69]

When ever bills are produced by the Council be it for major works or actual charges on Service Charges always request a full and detailed breakdown of costs. From experience charges can be duplicated or just wrong.

[werdna101]

I should have also mentioned that any repairs over ?250 must be preceded by something called a section 20 notification. If there is no section 20 notification then legally the council are only allowed to charge you up to a maximum of ?250. This should be included in your lease, but I believe is also in the housing act from the 80s.

This includes if they start the work and then find that repairs cost them more - they should still issue a section 20 otherwise you are only liable for ?250.

This happened to us. The upstairs property was a council tenant and had a roof leak. They informed the council who erected scaffolding to repair it. They then tried to charge us over ?1000 for the works, but because a section 20 hadn't been issued we were able to argue that we weren't properly notified and the council had to change the invoice and only charge us ?250.

If you are notified of upcoming major works this will normally include a section 20 notification. The council only seem to miss it where it involves repairs being requested by tenants in smaller mixed blocks. I think there is also a legal exclusion for emergency repairs, e.g. a tree falls through a roof - but these should be covered by the buildings insurance you pay in your service charge (the policy only covers emergency events and doesn't cover general wear and tear).

On the providing your own quotes for works, I was told that there was some small print that comes on the council's quote for repairs that mentions this, but it is hidden in the detail. I haven't seen it myself so not sure where exactly it's mentioned. However, I think they're only likely to approve for small blocks and street properties - if it's a large block and there's a lot of work, e.g. replacing all the windows, they won't agree to miss out your flat and then get your tradesmen to just do yours.

[PeckhamRose]

I really recommend you join LAS2000 too. As I said, I just got a 45% deduction because their invoice was incorrect and without knowing the questions to ask, I'd not have known that the council screwed up.

[buddug]

Miss B6 - take pictures, then do demand that contractors come back to made good the work. I always do this and they do come - and eventually a good job is done, usually by the third or fourth time! Get in writing or email what the southwark rep thought of the finished job first if you can, or just as good, an independent surveyor or builder. Southwark has too many cowboys working for them - they'd never have them at their own homes, but they inflict them on us leaseholders.

They're also always failing to issue section 20 notices or whatever. It's hilarious. But at least that's an error in leaseholders' favour, for a change. And they're always overcharging due to 'errors'. Always ask for a breakdown of repairs. We were charged for a new gate - after the old gate was wrecked by Southwark's scaffolders! They took that charge and many others off the bill. You have to watch them like hawks.

They've dumped Morrisons and now have Mears. It remains to be seen if they're any better. I think there is a new culture at the council where they now want to provide a better standard of work, if only to avoid the hassle of comeback from aggrieved leaseholders. But as Werdna101 said, to use your own contractors after providing a couple of quotes, you must be prepared to 'argue like mad' and stand your ground. Too many people in the housing department believe your home is 'their' property.

[spider69]

spider69 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> When ever bills are produced by the Council be it

> for major works or actual charges on Service

> Charges always request a full and detailed

> breakdown of costs. From experience charges can be

> duplicated or just wrong.

Page 15 Southwark News confirms this with an admission from Leasehold Management that Service Charge Bills sent out are wrong.

[Nickyphoto]

Dear all

I have in the last 2 weeks been landed with an invoice from Southwark Council for Major Works to my building/estate. Whats shocking is it is for ?12,500!!

I live in a small 1 bed ex council flat. 50 sqm, ground floor, no lift. (basically the lowest of the low in terms of accommodation).

I think I might get new windows (there are 4). And I have seen something relating to electrics and the roof. This has knocked me for 6 and might mean I will have to sell to pay the invoice. I can't be the only one this is happening too. I live on the Lettsom estate in Camberwell.

I am of course looking into my rights etc. If anyone has had or is in a similar situation, I would love to share any findings and advice. I am researching the various bodies that support people with similar issues but any guidance from anyone with better knowledge would be very gratefully received.

Thanks in advance...

[spider69]

Are these actual bills? Before bills are sent out you should have received in detail "A notice of intention" prior to tendering providing a 30 day oberservation period and then "A notice of proposal" along with a statement giving the result of the tender process. A 30 day observation period must be given to allow leaseholders to make comments on the prices received.

Both are important steps for initiating Major Works

[werdna101]

For major works, leaseholders are responsible for a share of all communal costs (i.e. works done to the block, not the inside of other people's flats). So roof works, communal electrics, lifts etc are all included. And in law windows and front doors are included in fabric of the building so you have to pay a share of these too. You shouldn't be billed until the actual works have been completed, so this may be the notice of intention.

Check that you are only being billed for communal works and no renovation costs from inside other people's flats have snuck in.

If you aren't happy with the costs challenge it and don't be afraid to with hold payment until the invoice is correct.

If you are challenging and not getting any traction, Southwark operate their own tribunal process which contains both leaseholders and council officers which is a good first stop beyond the more formal Leaseholder Valuation Tribunal.

Southwark also operate repayment schemes for major works that let you spread the repayment over a number of years (interest free I think). Speak to the Home Ownership Unit about repayment options as they do try and help you spread the cost. If you chose to sell, any buyer would want the cost of the major works off the purchase price, as the bill goes with the property, rather than with you.

[Nickyphoto]

I quite often receive notices of intention and proposals. I have seen nothing availing to this amount of money as I would have noticed it. However when I receive these packages they are full of difficult legal docs and jargon so tend to get scanned. I am trying to get hold of something more concrete now.

I have no problem with general up keep costs and maintenance. But this figure is sooo high. Most of the time its for a few hundred pounds here and there. 3 years ago we had a ?2-3000 major works which was a bit of a stinker. But we planned it for the year and managed fine.

But ?12500 is astronomical. If I pay ?200 every month it will take me over 5 years to payoff. I can replace the windows and electrics in my house for ?3000 independently. (the roof is another matter)

I have been offered an interest free payment plan so thats something.

I am looking for someone to talk to who has experienced something similar with major works that exceed ?10000. Preferably on a larger housing estate with council tenants. I am happy to contribute to the work but the amount seems so unreasonable to expect someone at my my housing level to have this kind of money.