The Gardens cafe - NOT baby friendly

[Pugwash]

I frequent an ED cafe and were surprised to hear from cafe owners that trade has gradually been going downhill. A few regular clients set out to ask former users why they never use the cafe any more. The answers were that mums, buggies, children had taken over most of the tables. No problem with buggies as a clearly defined pram park in the cafe. It was groups of mums who came for a coffee and spun this out for almost 2 hours whilst they chatted with friends. The children were left to wander about the tables. some running, some crying/screaming. Other people were being put off by the numbers and noise of mums and kids. The cafe was being used as a meeting place by a dozen or so mums. The cafe owners did not want to impose a minimum charge as felt this would discourage those who just wanted a quick drink and be in and out in half an hour or so. Wheras some of the mothers may purchase a cake or sandwich to eat, others would bring out packed lunches for the children and sometimes themselves! When approached by staff who point out the notices which state only food purchased on the premises could be consummed, one mum had retorted that she could not afford to eat there as too expensive and had only come in so that she could see her friends!. Whereas having gone through 3 children and 6 grandchildren - I know the difficulty in finding a child friendly cafe/restaurant, but I can also see the cafe owner's point of view that free meeting space to meet friends is not viable if you just have a ?2.50 drink - where could you hire a meeting venue for ?2.50 an hour?

[Chillaxed]

Aye, it's a tricky one, but it's not just Mums and kids and buggies that sit on a coffee for hours - just ask any cafe that provides free WiFi or is within stumbling distance of student digs. There's a difference between objecting to parents and babies and buggies and objecting to customers hogging tables. And you need to think carefully about excludng a group of people based on how a minority of them behave. By the by, these large groups of Mums and little ones must be a weekday phenom as it always seems like a mix of people are in the cafes I frequent at the weekends.

[LondonMix]

Yes, its a tricky one. Other groups (free loading students etc) don't usually need quite as much space and probably more importantly don't put other users off in the same way. That might make the family trade more problematic for small cafes. Figuring out the best business plan in this economic environment must be fraught with challenges.

I agree of a weekend everywhere seems fairly mixed with only a couple of notable exceptions.

[Ossa]

I think the Gardens is just a bit rubbish. I've been in without any kids for a coffee and cake a few times and they are no good at making you feel welcome (e.g. I was asked to move tables even though the place was practically empty, the table I vacated was not used while I was there). And the service was (as described up thread) really slow and not that friendly. So it might not be a matter of discriminating - they may just not be suited to the service industry.

[Monkey]

Love pugwash's post: groups of mums taking over a cafe, children running everywhere, screaming, people bringing their own packed lunches? Bit of an exaggeration from that ed cafe owner perhaps?

Going back to the original post, the op wanted to have lunch with her friends. What the hell's the problem with that? They were using the cafe for what it's for. Is it acceptable for a cafe to say "no mums for lunch here"? How about if it said "no gays, we are Christians", "no black people, our customers are mostly white", "no smelly oldies"?

[Otta]

Going back to the original post, the op wanted to have lunch with her friends. What the hell's the problem with that?

There is no problem, and fortunately she had a nice lunch with her friends and had a great time.

They were using the cafe for what it's for. Is it acceptable for a cafe to say "no mums for lunch here"? How about if it said "no gays, we are Christians", "no black people, our customers are mostly white", "no smelly oldies"?

But they never said "no mums for lunch here", lets all just stop making up scenarios. How the hell have you made the leap from an issue with buggies to comparing that with real discrimination against gays or black people!?!?

If you read the OP again, it was actually a staff member who they origionally had their problem with. They then "challenged" the staff member, and we have no idea what tone that was done in. The manager then came and stuck up for his staff member. We have no idea how the OP and her party were acting, so lets just stop talking about discrimination and comparing this to real discrimination like homophobia or racism.

[Monkey]

My last point should have been a third para. Not related to the op incident but to some of the comments on this thread about mums in cafes, which paint all mothers with the same brush.

In any event, I am never bothered by pushchairs in east dulwich or anywhere. They are a fact of life and certainly less big than the silver cross my mother in law had in the 70s. Having said that, she says that mums pretty much stayed at home then...

[matana]

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[Saffron]

Pugwash Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I frequent an ED cafe and were surprised to hear

> from cafe owners that trade has gradually been

> going downhill. A few regular clients set out to

> ask former users why they never use the cafe any

> more. The answers were that mums, buggies,

> children had taken over most of the tables. No

> problem with buggies as a clearly defined pram

> park in the cafe. It was groups of mums who came

> for a coffee and spun this out for almost 2 hours

> whilst they chatted with friends. The children

> were left to wander about the tables. some

> running, some crying/screaming. Other people were

> being put off by the numbers and noise of mums and

> kids. The cafe was being used as a meeting place

> by a dozen or so mums. The cafe owners did not

> want to impose a minimum charge as felt this would

> discourage those who just wanted a quick drink and

> be in and out in half an hour or so. Wheras some

> of the mothers may purchase a cake or sandwich to

> eat, others would bring out packed lunches for the

> children and sometimes themselves! When approached

> by staff who point out the notices which state

> only food purchased on the premises could be

> consummed, one mum had retorted that she could not

> afford to eat there as too expensive and had only

> come in so that she could see her friends!.

> Whereas having gone through 3 children and 6

> grandchildren - I know the difficulty in finding a

> child friendly cafe/restaurant, but I can also see

> the cafe owner's point of view that free meeting

> space to meet friends is not viable if you just

> have a ?2.50 drink - where could you hire a

> meeting venue for ?2.50 an hour?

Cafe trade not going down hill in Brockley or Forest Hill, that I can see. Lots of nice new places opened in the last two years, with different places caterting for different customer bases by providing things that make them attractive to that base, not by repelling those who don't fit the groove.

Would love to see The Gardens respond to this thread as Canvass & Cream did to a similar thread!

[AnyaJoeli]

I've always been a bit nonplussed by the Gardens...I spent quite a few hours there with my (sling or buggy) baby every week when it first opened, the one thing that has always struck me is that it's hugely overpriced for what it is, and has never been particularly welcoming. They initially gave massive doorstop pieces of carrot cake which as a new mum I used to eat rather too many of them on a weekly basis, and one day I went in with a group of other annoying mummy friends and we all ordered the carrot cake (one piece each, not scrimping!), and they arrived about half an hour later (how long does it take to put a slice of cake on a plate...?) and were significantly smaller than they used to be, and one of us commented on this. The waitress said "oh yes they were too big before so we weren't making money, so they're smaller now but the same price"...which I thought was such an odd and rough way of dealing with it, albeit I guess totally truthful, it made us all feel really pissed off that a (not amazing, small) coffee and a smaller piece of cake was setting us back the best part of a tenner, when you could eat a proper lunch for that elsewhere. I've never been particularly impressed by it and now I have a marauding toddler I wouldn't think of it as somewhere that would feel fun and friendly for him so I'd take my (admittedly not hugely profitable) business to Bambuni, dish and spoon or the rye cafe, or homemade on barry rd.

But even if I didn't have him in tow, I would probably prefer to go somewhere where the service was slightly better, and the coffee wasn't so expensive.

It's a shame. As the location is great.

[Help-Ma-Boab]

Review of The Gardens in Southwark News today. Free paper picked up outside shops on LL. I noted "... The place is quite family orientated, with ample room to manoeuvre buggies"

Do the owners pay for these reviews as it seems at odds to this thread.

Confused non parent, have enjoyed breakfast in the past in there but not been for a while. Service had the potential to be slow, but I chivvied them up a bit. Good enough fry, prefer Prettys now.

[paulipedia]

I used to quite like working there but they've now gotten rid of wi-fi so they obviously don't like freelancers too

[Enida]

I used to love the Gardens cafe last year. I used to take my daughter there and sit in the back room and she got to play with the other kids. Then they changed the setting and the attitude towards mums and babies. I never felt welcomed afterwards and didn't come back. I don't know how they don't get what a mistake that it - the place used to be full of mums and children having food and cakes and coffees, and now it's empty all the time!

[Fuschia]

Enida, try the dish and spoon

There are toys there

Very friendly

[Enida]

Thanks Fuschia, it's a bit far for us (we tend to walk to places) but we'll try and get there at least once -).

Enida

[Fuschia]

Not far from the playground peckham rye

Bread of life cafe by the library is also very child friendly with toys (open weekdays)

[caz6868]

i there everyone,i am not sure where this cafe is in dulwich,but i will say this... i am a mum of five and have never wanted to take my big buggys into a cafe area,health and safety serious issue,tripping up over wheels.If get to a cafe and see its a bit small or another buggy is onboard,i plod on.you may feel like you are being pick on.theres lots i cannot do out and about because i have a baby onboard,but alas it won't be forever.for example i went to peckham cinema with my 9yr old and 7 month old,i was not able to take my buggy in due to health and safety. At first i was seething,worse i was told there was a session for mums and little ones and you could bring the buggy.i thought whats going on,but really common sense should tell us there should not be any buggys in here.i should have got someone to babysit and gone to the pics with my 9yr old and have some good bonding time.xxx

[caz6868]

its nice to have coffee,cake with friends,babies...but realistically you all can't be piling up buggys in cafes.i have always sat outside.may buy a sandwich and pop to the park.don't want to be in a confined space.good luck mummmys.xx

[caz6868]

chill out mums,there really is not enough space for all the mummys and buggys in tiny dulwich.health and safety should play a big part in this..common sense and feeling like you can't swing a cat is not my idea of enjoying myself with baby and friend.mum of five who pops down the park with a sandwich,gloves at hand and freedom..lol. not long those children will be out of those buggys soon. time flys

[caz6868]

your message has me giggling.the seats you are talking about do help out if you have a buggy and need to sit near the child and move out the way for another buggy to park,otherwise your bottom is protruding and blocking the aisle.like you said parents with children,elders,disabled.child does not have to be on you lap.over the years traveling on buses i have watched folks of london obliviously taking seats at the front of bus,you know the first 4 seats. once seated there there mind goes awol,oh and there eyes. should be more aware watching the door to see if elders are getting on or mum with .child,disabled person.even when i have travelled alone without my tribe..i will stand if need be..its not forever. i have always taught my child to get up and offer seat to someone they think needs it.xx

[caz6868]

thinking about others and the effects of behaviour is my downfall.thats why i don't go in the cafes .lol

1 so i avoid a pile up and two i don't want to cause one.

[zeban]

No caz 'like I said' elders, disabled, those pregnant, those less able to stand, and parents with children they need to place on their lap have priority for those seats-perhaps you should have a look at the sign again on the buses! In this instance there was in fact a seat that man could have folded down in that area which I pointed out to him but he didn't want to use that one, although it was in fact right next to his buggy, he wanted mine.He didn't need to stand either, there were plenty of seats so he still could have sat in one opposite his buggy if he wanted to be close to it. He was just an entitled bully plain and simple, without a protruding bottom might I add!

[Saffron]

caz6868 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> i there everyone,i am not sure where this cafe is

> in dulwich,but i will say this... i am a mum of

> five and have never wanted to take my big buggys

> into a cafe area,health and safety serious

> issue,tripping up over wheels.If get to a cafe and

> see its a bit small or another buggy is onboard,i

> plod on.

But the experience many posters are trying to share is that this cafe seems sometimes not to want parents with prams even when there is room for them. Also, as you say you're not familiar with The Gardens, this cafe has a large fenced outdoor area in which prams could be folded and stored while parents dined, yet somehow The Gardens has missed an opportunity to do this. Many of us who have used this cafe off and on since its opening a couple of years ago are baffled by this, as the The Gardens was initially very family/buggy friendly.

Yes, it's part of life that a buggy will limit parents in some respects, but it will give them freedom in others.

It's also part of life that when people have experiences, good or bad, they often want to share them. Sadly it seems that parents' experiences on this thread are not great at The Gardens. Thankfully people have listed lots of nice alternatives. I'd rather go somewhere I knew I'd be welcome, than taking a chance on somewhere I might not.

My friend's father (who lives near The Gardens cafe) told me that many planning applications had been made and turned down for the location (what was then the disused and boarded up Electrical Shop). Local residents (according to him) were not keen on having an eating establishment in this location. The opening of The Gardens was greeted with some scepticism by local residents, as I understand it. At the time, I couldn't see why, but perhaps now it's becoming clear.

And did The Gardens really cancel the Wifi????

So their customer base is anyone who doesn't use a laptop computer or have a small child or buggy? Pfft, in East Dulwich? Good luck.

[Otta]

"Many of us who have used this cafe off and on since its opening a couple of years ago are baffled by this, as the The Gardens was initially very family/buggy friendly."

So, in conclusion, they tried it, it clearly done their head in, so they changed.

Probably a really really stupid business move, but their right to make it. If they're still open by next summer, then perhaps it wasn't such a bad idea, and they have attracted a group of customers who like a buggy free place.

We've all seen many a thread on here with people moaning about kids in pubs / cafes, so surely there are people out there who would enjoy a place where buggies were not particularly made welcome?

For the record, at no point have I sided with the chap's opinion on mums and buggies (although I do think that SOME people could be more considerate to the world outside of their little bubbles), but I just think he has every right to run his business as he sees fit, within the law, and he'll have to live with the consequences of his choices.

[DaveR]

"So their customer base is anyone who doesn't use a laptop computer or have a small child or buggy....."

...and who doesn't mind paying a bit over the odds, and getting service that varies from bored, via slightly offhand, to verging on the hostile.