Israel and the Guardian innit

[Michael Palaeologus]

Its a bit of all that, isnt it really. It is historically about the cold war and the Jewish lobby in the US.

The US needs/wants a counterbalance to radical Islam, it cant completely trust any of its allied Arab countries because of their internal tensions and it needs a proxy state in a part of the world that has oil and wealth and power, albeit partially potential power.

Israel is the an immensely militarised state, the IDF is highly influential within Israeli democratic politics, everybody is or was or will be in the military, or their son/daughter will be/is.

I dont see a solution any time soon.

[El Pibe]

"still get a sense of evil Isreal from you both"

What a very silly man you are sometimes quids.

What I'm trying to offer are potential ways forwards to cut the very tedious gordian knot of intractable conflict.

It is within Israel's purview to solve the conflict, it isn't within that of the Palestinians.

Of course Israelis aren't evil but their decision makers are wrong and aren't working to end the conflict simply make it manageable on their terms. I find this a morally reprehensible position.

I also think history suggests its an untenable one in the long term, the far more sensible way forward would be to normalise itself as a country and its relations with its neighbours.

My personal opinion is that it should do this by changing the nature of itself as a country. One state based upon rule of law for all its citizens. I reckon joining the EU and signing up to the Human Rights Charter would be sensible way forward too.

[????]

And how will Israel Normalise relations with Iran for instance a country whose PM has said they want it wiped off the face of the world? The Palestininas have some ways to try and solve the conflict, they could maybe stop supporting and voting for Hamas who keep firing rockets out of territory that they were given by Israel in a recent attempt to try and normalise it a bit. The Palestinias too it could be argued are trying to make it manageable on their terms, with far less leverage admittedly, ie extract concessions from Israel using international pressure and then continue with hostility.

Nope, I don't think it is within Israel's power to normalise it becuase their many enemies don't want them there, end of, non -Negotiable, so I agree it's untenable . Either Israel will cease to exist or it (the conflict) will go on for ever, I can't see a solution. Many of israel's actions and policies are despicable but so are those of the other lot.

[edhistory]

> territory that they were given by Israel

Is that the correct verb?

John K

[Otta]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> i don't think EP was fightin' me, I think we share

> in our despair. Polarised, inflexible, irrational,

> hatred is winning unfortunately.

What Quids said!

Interestingly a large part of the antagonising behaviour blamed on the Jews of Israel is actually down to American Jews who decide they are going to go and live in their promised land, these people are morons.

Israel is the Millwall of the world "no body likes us, we don't care". There is fault on both sides, and the whole thing is the biggest mess in the world. It's gone on so long that for every valid argument against one side there will be an equally valid argument against the other.

What annoys me is the idiots on facebook posting "boycott Israel". Bandwagon jumping with no time taken to look at the bigger picture.

[RosieH]

Otta, how on earth do you know that they've taken no time to look at the bigger picture?

There's certainly plenty of informed reason to boycott, as a for instance, products from the occupied territories, often labelled simply as "product of Israel".

[Otta]

If you knew the people I'm talking about you wouldn't ask. They are the same people that are conspiricy in everything. I'll show you some posts one day and see what you think.

Israel have acted badly at times, as have the other side.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

If you're going to slag off Millwall, at least get the words right.

Not wot keef said!

[Otta]

I wasn't slagging off Millwall, I was... Oh bollocks to it.

[maxxi]

Otta Wrote:

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>

>

> Israel is the Millwall of the world "no body likes

> us, we don't care".

Ahh, so the ICF were really the PLO. I thought I saw that Yasser bloke calling the shots at New X Gate back in the 80s.

[Michael Palaeologus]

Millwall are going to invade Palestine? We really are in the do-do.

Thanks for the warning Otta ...

[Otta]

An example of what I am seeing on Facebook.

"Where are all the dedicated, hardcore Kony 2012 activists now that the Palestinians are victims of a real genocide, real crimes against humanity, and need real help? Oh, that's right, you are a bunch of clueless, frivolous, easily-led followers and repeaters who are utterly bereft of any sort of natural backbone or conscience. You people are nothing but programmed, spineless drones imbibing the official story of everything. Complicit in the Zionist takeover of the entire planet, you lot should hang your heads in shame and beg for forgiveness."

This guy also thinks the evil Zionist World Order arranged 9/11, and dragged us in to world wars because Churchill#s mum had Jewish blood.

[RosieH]

Well, genocide has a very specific definition, but it's an emotive subject and it's not surprising that people resort to such language, particularly when you get fuckers like Gilad Sharon calling for Gaza to be flattened Hiroshima-style.

There are also some serious thinkers who believe 9/11 was part of a conspiracy (although perhaps not by a Zionist World Order).

[Otta]

Really?

I've heard loads of theories about 9/11 and seen each of them disproved. But they've all been from people who I think it's safe to put in the "nut job" catagory. I'd genuinely be interested to hear the theories you're talking about.

Couldn't agree more about the likes of Gilad Sharon, there are muppets spouting bile on both sides.

[????]

Serious thinkers? Oh noooooooooooo, please behave Rosie, I really didn't have you down as one of 'them'.

[El Pibe]

Actually there were, doesn't make them right of course.

The late great gore Vidal had a disappointing penchant for these theories.

Funnily enough the whole Konya thing was naive, misguided and factually very very iffy but that's another story.

Is Sharon any relation? That the current Israeli strategy is the baby of that war criminal isn't surprising.

If only Rabin had lived...

[flocker spotter]

El Pibe Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Actually there were, doesn't make them right of

> course.

> The late great gore Vidal had a disappointing

> penchant for these theories.

>

> Funnily enough the whole Konya thing was naive,

> misguided and factually very very iffy but that's

> another story.

>

> Is Sharon any relation? That the current Israeli

> strategy is the baby of that war criminal isn't

> surprising.

> If only Rabin had lived...

One of his sons

[Huguenot]

The Konya thing was a bit rash.

I continue to find disagreeable versions of history that attribute grand social exercises to the acts of individuals. You can get fleeting acts or interests establishing significant blips on the course of mankind, but we swing towards the average.

Britain's history is established by geography, not individual acts of heroism or insight. Blair's war crimes by a society in denial, Thatcher by the collapse of socialism in the face of self-interest and disavowal of community funded enterprise. Hitler to the Weimar Republic.

It doesn't matter who the individual was, whoever was born to that moment would have enacted similar policies.

The middle east is governed by gross external influence in the interest of energy supply - yes, water is currently the overriding concern, but resources and the unfair distribution of self determination sits at the core.

The great fist of the Black Country revelations (by this I mean Coalbrookdale) has enforced the lack of tribal self-determinism that sits at the root of middle east conflict.

In Europe we have nations that barely make 200 miles across, in the middle east we created vast swathes of land 1,000s of mile across by dictat that disenfranchised the right of warring nations to find their own way.

They still persist, and can only function by subcontinental untouchable ghettos.

The subdivision of Iraq would be the cleverest piece of politics in the present day, but strategic imperatives refuse it.

[LadyDeliah]

The subdivision of a lot of Africa had a similar effect. Dividing natural ethnic groups into various countries and each country having competing tribal groups has guaranteed a lack of unity and continuation of Western control of their resources.

Generalisation, I know, but a big, well thought out trend in Western country mapping of former colonies.

[RosieH]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Serious thinkers? Oh noooooooooooo, please behave

> Rosie, I really didn't have you down as one of

> 'them'.

Ha, Quids, I didn't say I subscribed, but yes, as Pibe says, people like Gore Vidal and Chomsky (although I suspect I'll get a kicking for namechecking him).

To be honest, I don't think it's so terribly far-fetched to think that if a country is prepared to go to war for oil (with all the death that brings with it) that they'd be prepared to stand back and do nothing as their citizens are murdered, to give them the justification they need to launch said war.

I've seen no evidence to suggest that to be true, but just like the royals killing Diana, do I think it's possible? Well, sure.

[????]

CHOMSKY!!!

Gore Vidal was past the prime of his thinking by then....

[RosieH]

You're welcome!

[El Pibe]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> And how will Israel Normalise relations with Iran

> for instance a country whose PM has said they want

> it wiped off the face of the world? The

> Palestininas have some ways to try and solve the

> conflict, they could maybe stop supporting and

> voting for Hamas who keep firing rockets out of

> territory that they were given by Israel in a

> recent attempt to try and normalise it a bit. The

> Palestinias too it could be argued are trying to

> make it manageable on their terms, with far less

> leverage admittedly, ie extract concessions from

> Israel using international pressure and then

> continue with hostility.

>

> Nope, I don't think it is within Israel's power to

> normalise it becuase their many enemies don't want

> them there, end of, non -Negotiable, so I agree

> it's untenable . Either Israel will cease to exist

> or it (the conflict) will go on for ever, I can't

> see a solution. Many of israel's actions and

> policies are despicable but so are those of the

> other lot.

A few points*, I'm afraid I'll semi-fisk.

The Palestinians are trying to manage, that's not the same thing as pursuing permamnently manageable conflict by any stretch of the imagination. They are trying to work towards a solution but the party with the power isn't interested at the moment, it has been in the past and inevitably will in the (possibly horribly distant) future, and though the palestinians will not accept permanent occupancy, it isn't in their interest in any way shape or form to pursue the continuance of the conflict.

It _is_ for Israel who gets to continue building settlements, bagging the water and avoiding ever having to deal with compensation, right to return** or a settlement over Jerusalem.

Iran has nothing to do with this. First comes the acceptable solution then comes the normalisation with neighbours.

There is no 'end of'. You could equally have said that of Arab champion and implacable enemy Egypt in the mid 70s and within a couple of years they were allies, Egypt even helping to police the ghettoisation of Gaza.

Iran is led by a populist leader smitten with his rhetoric. They aren't a direct threat in that their fully mobilised armies barely made it ten miles into Iraq at the height of the war there, I'm not sure how they're expecting to reach Israel, plus they're not stupid enough to rain missiles down on a country with a good track record for disproportionate response possessed of hundreds of nuclear warheads.

In time the rhetoric war with the US will calm down and the reformers will gain the upper hand again (remember the arab spring (yeah they're not arabs I know) really kicked off there and tensions are unresolved) as they did in the 90s, and things will change there.

The really interesting question in all of this is how the Arab Spring has changed matters.

In the short term it has strengthened Israel's hand. Syria has its own problems, Iraq is in political stasis, most of the Gulf States are busy with their own repression and deflecting anger to Israel ain't cutting it any more for these regimes. For those in a democratic transision with their fates in their own hands there's now no point getting all uppity about Israel/Palestine as an outlet for frustration, they have countries to build and economies to revitalise.

The mute response of the Egyptian people is particularly key, and has been reflected in the cautious approach of Egypt, still ostensibly cooperating with Israel, but much more lukewarm. I suspect it has played a very big role in securing the ceasefire having quite a weight of influence with both parties. I also applaud its lack of sabre rattling.

In the longer term genuine democracies and more successful economies mean Israel as beacon of democracy is masively undermined, whilst governements will no longer be existential threats but will want to be partners in the process. Again a continued belligerent stance will isolate Israel further.

Ultimately its easy to despair and say this is fundamental and eternal hate, but that can be said of many conflicts many of which have found or are finding peace, think N Ireland, S Africa, Colombia, S Salvador, Guatemala, France & Germany, christ France & England (wasn't that the origin of the term Detente in the modern sense?).

What it takes is for brave people to say "I will talk". That's already happened in Israel and it wasn't Hamas or the PLO who killed him!

Peace will be met through compromise and dialogue and am confident that this will (eventually) come to pass.

*apologies for coming back to this but have quite literally had hands full with a very sick little boy for a while

**If I was a palestinian negotiator I'd just drop these, accept that you lost the war in 1948 and just concentrate on creating a viable state, which is actually pretty much what happened in the Oslo Peace Accords.