Westminster Council & Rare Meat

[Marmora Man]

Westminster Council's Environmental Health Officers are insisting that restaurants serve meat that has been cooked at 158F (70C) for two minutes.

James Armitage, a council EHO ?This is about making sure customers are eating meat that is not a threat to their health. It is possible to produce burgers that can be eaten undercooked, but strict controls are essential. The council has engaged Prof Hugh Pennington, the UK?s top expert on E. coli and he has outlined that rare minced meat that is not correctly cooked and prepared can kill.

A court case is pending where Davy's restaurant is challenging the council's approach.

I have always eaten my burgers and steaks; I also enjoy steak tartare - it has become increasingly more difficult to find restaurants prepared to serve meat the way I like it - I have even been asked to sign a waiver before e restaurant would serve my order.

This degree of concern about safety far outweighs the danger.

Keep meat bloody and rare.

[Otta]

I like my steak bloody, but burgers? I just find that a bit nasty.

You should move to France, they don't give a shit.

['bout now]

I'll sign any waiver that any restaurant wants.

I eat meat occasionally and I like it almost alive.

[Salsaboy]

Take it's horns off, wipe it's arse and put it on a plate.

[PeckhamRose]

... walk it through a warm kitchen on way to said plate.

[Jeremy]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I like my steak bloody, but burgers? I just find that a bit nasty.

I think it's safe if the beef has been freshly minced. But not safe for bought-in burgers, or even burgers made from standard mince. But fair enough if it's not your bag.

[david_carnell]

Is this an actual instance of "'elf and safety gone mad"?.

I like a freshly cooked burger served pink and juicy. These are from decent joints not dodgy back street kebab houses.

Freedom of choice here, surely? And people shouldn't have to sign anything to get the food they want and are paying for. Perhaps we are getting our cummupence for being overly litigeous.

[Otta]

I don't really blame the restaurants for getting people to sign things, in this day and age, you can bet your house that there are plenty of poeple out there who wouldn't hesitate to try and claim compensation from the restaurant if they got food poisoning after demanding nearly raw meat. You can't blame them for protecting their business, and they are not refusing to give you what you want.

It is common for people to have to sign waivers before parachute jumps, or bungee jumps. Now I know that the potential dangers are much larger, but effectively it is a business protecting themselves.

Besides, these days people are signing waivers ahead of kids parties and playdates. It's a crazy messed up world.

Anyway, I hardly ever eat a burger or high or low quality except at a summer BBQ, so doesn't really matter what I think, but the thought of a bloody burger makes me feel a bit gippy.

[????]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Freedom of choice here, surely? And people

> shouldn't have to sign anything to get the food

> they want and are paying for. Perhaps we are

> getting our cummupence for being overly litigeous.

So how many places in Westminster have been sued for dodgy burgers do you reckon? Nope big brother 'we know best' 'elf and safety I reckon

[Mick Mac]

A quality burger served rare is as good as a steak for me. Yum.

Agree with MM - its nanny state and hopefully quality restaurants will be able to defend this.

People who get food poisoning are more likely to have picked it up from a poorly run restaurant from chicken, pork or shellfish than from a freshly minced burger.

[Chillaxed]

158F (70C) for two minutes is still going to leave your meat mooing, no?

[Otta]

Exactly Chillaxed!

People who want meat pretty much raw are for me, in the same category as blokes ordering vindaloos for some macho reason.

A steak cooked for a minute either side will still be plenty bloody and pink.

[Mick Mac]

Rare is not raw.

But anyway Otta I see it quite the opposite of how you see it : vindaloo = lads night out v quality rare burger = fine dining

Alternatively: Hot curry = can't taste the meat : as against: rare = taste the meat at its most succulent

[Otta]

Yes, but the fact remains that 1 minute either side is still rare.

[Otta]

My Missus (a vegetarian) once worked as an au pair for a French family, and she was horrified that she had to give the small child (think she said he was barely more than a toddler) steaks that she was told to touch the pan for 5 seconds either side before serving.

That to me is basically raw.

[peckhamboy]

Nowt wrong with that. I've been known to trim a little slice off a fillet steak before cooking it and eat it actually raw. Damn tasty it is too.

[Annette Curtain]

Technically-Beef cooked to an internal temp of 70c for two minutes is "well done"

It's standard level 2 food preparation regs. Essentially the product has to probed in the centre (not externally) with a digital meat thermometer for 2 minutes and hold that heat level consistently.

So no more rare or even pink burgers at that temp, in Westminister.

Incidentally, Lamb & Venison are well done at the same 70c temp, though Pork is "well done" at 75c.

[Mick Mac]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> My Missus (a vegetarian) once worked as an au pair

> for a French family, and she was horrified that

> she had to give the small child (think she said he

> was barely more than a toddler) steaks that she

> was told to touch the pan for 5 seconds either

> side before serving.

>

> That to me is basically raw.

Possibly less likely to choke on a nice soft rare bite of meat, than an overcooked hard to chew lump in throat bit of meat that might come its way in this country.

[Jeremy]

Otta, I don't really see what's wrong with beef which is basically raw inside, as long as the quick frying is enough to kill any bacteria lurking on the outside. It's surely just a matter of cultures and personal taste.

It's not really how I'd want it, but there's nothing inherently wrong with eating raw meat.

[Otta]

No there isn't if you're in to pure flesh.

Seriously, I'm not suggesting it's morally questionable or anything, just that I can't see why anyone would fancy it. I like a bit of extra flavour added and some crispy fatty bits.

[BJL]

Maybe the council were spurred into action by episodes like this?

Raymond Blanc's lamb's liver off menu after poisonings (BBC)

[Marmora Man]

I was aware of that decision BJL - which, on the whole, I deplore.

The Brasserie Blanc chain has been running for nearly 10 years. To the best of my knowledge it has always offered a lambs liver dish and always cooked it pink (at least they were happy to do so on the occasions I've eaten it there).

So roughly 18 restaurants x 10 years x 52 weeks x 6 days x 5 portions a day (estimate) = 281,000 servings and two (2) reported cases of food poisoning - which cannot have been that serious if the fine only amounted to ?3,000. That's a 0.0007% error rate - something close to perfection.

As I understand it Raymond Blanc took the dish off the menu as he refused to serve lambs liver well done - in the style of 1960s school dinners.

ETA - I have experienced food poisoning and I know its not fun. I met a bad oyster at my 60th birthday dinner - making for an uncomfortable start to my 7th decade. Even at the best of restaurants seafood, rare cooked meats, unpasteurised milk and cheeses - all carry some, very small, risk but the flavour and quality make it worthwhile.

The risk inherent in eating a "well done" kebab from a van outside the pub at 2.00am is far, far higher.

[Salsaboy]

I like the inside of my meat pink.