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diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Keano, name me one element of the NIP that the EU

> has contravened. If you can do that then there

> would already be a case for third party

> intervention/arbitration etc, because there will

> be a mechanism in the agreement for such a

> scenario. And you can guarantee that if this was

> indeed the case we'd be hearing about it non-stop

> from Leavers. Instead we get constant gaslighting

> about the NIP as if it's been imposed on us

> against our will, conveniently ignoring that

> parliament wasn't allowed time to properly

> scrutinise it, which in turn was clapped and

> cheered like performing seals by the Brexit

> supporting press.

>

I am not sure the EU has contravened any aspects of the NIP in a strictly legal sense. Nor have I argued that is the case. But as the EU does like to hide behind legal contracts I would point out, with reference to Peter Lilley on Newsnight, article 6.2 of the protocol mentions that the parties would try to avoid controls at ports and airports in Northern Ireland. This clearly isn?t the case. Hence accusations of the EU?s rigid approach and intransigence and inflamed tensions that are jeopardising the peace process. You forget the EU also signed up to this protocol and so are jointly responsible for the tensions.


> And what is this so-called 'bad faith'. What does

> that even mean in the context of the NIP? Again,

> give me examples instead of conjuring up

> manufactured phoney wars about ham sandwiches. Try

> taking a ham sandwich through US customs or a

> CANZAC country and see how far you get.


I don?t see the relevance of your North American example. You and I both know of many examples of businessmen frustrated by EU bureaucratic form filling for products they have been supplying to Europe for many years. Suddenly there are questions of bits of British soil on vegetables, apples grow on trees, trees grow in soil and so on. Soil that was perfectly acceptable on vegetables one minute became unacceptable the next because technically we were a third country. This is what I mean by bad faith. It?s over zealous petty officialdom. A rigid application of processes that lacks commonsense. Many a scoundrel hides behind the letter of the law.

>

> If you want actual bad faith or as is often the

> case, downright lies, look no further than the

> British PM telling a group of NI business people

> that there would be no border down the Irish Sea.

> Where's your outrage at that?


Not my problem

>

> The problem is and always has been your British

> exceptionalism, you won't accept the known

> consequences of what you voted for...


You call it British exceptionalism and yearn for closer ties with the EU as a solution. But that would tie our hands and prevent us doing deals with others. You can be sure trade deals with the US will be discussed with Biden and his team at the G7 this week.

The Gov didn't 'find' themselves in a situation of sign the deal or leave with no deal, they willfully engineered it. They could've asked to extend the transition period and given themselves more time to negotiate - Dominic Raab take note, that's actually what being pragmatic and flexible looks like, especially in the midst of a global pandemic. But no, that wasn't deemed Brexity enough for the purists...

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The Gov didn't 'find' themselves in a situation of

> sign the deal or leave with no deal, they

> willfully engineered it. They could've asked to

> extend the transition period and given themselves

> more time to negotiate - Dominic Raab take note,

> that's actually what being pragmatic and flexible

> looks like, especially in the midst of a global

> pandemic. But no, that wasn't deemed Brexity

> enough for the purists...


The EU signed the deal and made it an International Treaty. They see the damage their interpretation and implementation of the rules is causing. Question: what are they going to do to minimise the difficulties?

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> diable rouge Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Not my problem

> >

> > Wow, just wow...

>

> Sorry to disappoint but I don?t have any control

> over what our Prime Minister says.


You don't have any control over what the EU says but that doesn't stop you gibbering shite...

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> diable rouge Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The Gov didn't 'find' themselves in a situation

> of

> > sign the deal or leave with no deal, they

> > willfully engineered it. They could've asked to

> > extend the transition period and given

> themselves

> > more time to negotiate - Dominic Raab take

> note,

> > that's actually what being pragmatic and

> flexible

> > looks like, especially in the midst of a global

> > pandemic. But no, that wasn't deemed Brexity

> > enough for the purists...

>

> The EU signed the deal and made it an

> International Treaty. They see the damage their

> interpretation and implementation of the rules is

> causing. Question: what are they going to do to

> minimise the difficulties?


And the gibbering shite continues.


*Unsubscribes...*

>

> If you want actual bad faith or as is often the

> case, downright lies, look no further than the

> British PM telling a group of NI business people

> that there would be no border down the Irish Sea.

> Where's your outrage at that?


Not my problem

>


Dude, seriously?


You can?t see where that makes you look like you don?t give a f? about N Ireland? In which case I refer you to the latest declaration of Julia Hartley Brewer.


Seriously, if you say the whole NI thing isn?t your problem, then I don?t see how you can contort that into caring about when happens there, but hey, you do you?



The EU signed the deal and made it an International Treaty. They see the damage their interpretation and implementation of the rules is causing. Question: what are they going to do to minimise the difficulties?



Again, I?m not quite clear as to why this is exclusively the fault of the EU, but I suspect I never will be, seeing as there were two parties signatory to the deal and I reckon that means both sides need to accept their share of responsibility.


All I see here is Leavers claiming it?s entirely the EU?s fault, for (checks notes) sticking to the legal text of the thing.

Again, David Allen Green?check out that link.


? . Im not sure who all these people are you're referring to who trumpeted how amazing the NIP was??...?


You don?t remember the entire hierarchy of the Tory party, plus people like, ooooh, Kate Hoey and Nigel Farage, plus The Telegraph, Express, Sun and Mail, all cheerleading for it? You don?t remember poll after poll showing how people just wanted to ?get Brexit done??


Seriously, were you living under a rock last year? Because the Leave community got very firmly behind it. There wasn?t a lot of discussion about it being imperfect (some, not a lot) and generally speaking it was delivered as ?oven ready?. Then the problems started. Because it hadn?t actually been thought through. If the EU is now causing the UK trouble, it?s because the UK *agreed to a deal that lets them do that!*.


You had the chance for No Deal. You didn?t take it, despite tremendous public support for it amongst the Brexit-supporting public. Wonder why that was??

j.a. Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------


>

> ? . Im not sure who all these people are you're

> referring to who trumpeted how amazing the NIP

> was??...?

>

> You don?t remember the entire hierarchy of the

> Tory party, plus people like, ooooh, Kate Hoey and

> Nigel Farage, plus The Telegraph, Express, Sun and

> Mail, all cheerleading for it? You don?t remember

> poll after poll showing how people just wanted to

> ?get Brexit done??

>



No. I dont remember that at all.


If you're referring to esxcitemnt over the withdrawal agreement overall (of which the NIP is just one component) or the TCA in its entirety...then yes, I do recall that.


But with specific reference to the NIP (which is what we are discussing, no?)....I dont recall widespread trumpeting at all.

The NIP is part of the WA.


If it?s unacceptable now, why was nobody mentioning it back then?


Possibly because they figured to shove the whole thing through (IDS telling the HoC not to waste time reading it) and change it later?


Why would they agree to a deal that contained something bad? They seemed pretty happy about it at the time, then suddenly?

That pic of David Davis (no paperwork) in front of EU counterparts (lot's of paperwork) and him boasting afterwords about how it shows how easy all of this is .... it's something one can't shake about everything since


Not prepared to put the work in - either in prep, or in enacting what they agree. They should have been warning business over last couple of years to prep for this exact situation - instead we have video Johnson telling business that if anyone asks them for paperwork, give it to him and he will rip it up


This is not normal or grown up behaviour

Pretty disingenuous to say the 'excitement' was about the WA as a whole and not specifically the NIP, especially when you consider the Irish border problem was THE reason why we were hurtling towards a No Deal scenario, the proverbial can that got kicked down the road over several years, that led to a couple of extensions and even the fall of a PM.


It's like all the cheering and backslapping that greeted Johnson's breakthrough walk-in-the-garden moment with the Taoiseach and the subsequent dashed meetings to Brussels never happened...

"For all the preparation, paragraphs coloured in with highlighter pens etc the EU is now jeopardising the peace process. "


This is a really dumb statement amongst many dumb statements - Brexit meant this, and we told you. You wouldn't listen then and you won't now. EU hasn't forced UK to make any of the decisions it has - UK has done that in full knowledge of what it means.


Own

Your

Shit


FFS

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Pretty disingenuous to say the 'excitement' was

> about the WA as a whole and not specifically the

> NIP, especially when you consider the Irish border

> problem was THE reason why we were hurtling

> towards a No Deal scenario, the proverbial can

> that got kicked down the road over several years,

> that led to a couple of extensions and even the

> fall of a PM.

>

> It's like all the cheering and backslapping that

> greeted Johnson's breakthrough walk-in-the-garden

> moment with the Taoiseach and the subsequent

> dashed meetings to Brussels never happened...


"Re-subscribes"

"Re-subscribes"


'Unsubscribes' was shorthand for ''don't bother wasting your time replying as I can't be arsed engaging with your fuckwittery'', and wasn't a bail-out of the thread as a whole.


You're not as insightful as you like to think you are...

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yes, but at the risk of upsetting anyone else ...

>

> For all the preparation, paragraphs coloured in

> with highlighter pens etc the EU is now

> jeopardising the peace process.

>

> Staged photographs can be deceptive.


Seriously?! Really?


It?s *ALL* the EU?s fault? You think absolutely none of this is down to the UK govt in any way, shape or form?


Ok then. Not much more to say really.

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "For all the preparation, paragraphs coloured in

> with highlighter pens etc the EU is now

> jeopardising the peace process. "

>

> This is a really dumb statement amongst many dumb

> statements - Brexit meant this, and we told you.

> You wouldn't listen then and you won't now. EU

> hasn't forced UK to make any of the decisions it

> has - UK has done that in full knowledge of what

> it means.

>

> Own

> Your

> Shit

>

> FFS



(Munching on a Cumberland sausage sandwich slathered in Coleman?s English mustard)

Oh dear, the beginning of the end?


EU threatens to sue itself for going soft on strongmen leaders


European Parliament says it will hit Commission with legal action unless it triggers clauses linking EU cash to respect for the rule of law


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/10/eu-threatens-sue-going-soft-strongmen-leaders/

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "Re-subscribes"

>

> 'Unsubscribes' was shorthand for ''don't bother

> wasting your time replying as I can't be arsed

> engaging with your fuckwittery'', and wasn't a

> bail-out of the thread as a whole.

>

> You're not as insightful as you like to think you

> are...


Lighten-up pal. Believe it or not I somehow managed to crack your enigma code. Its a joke.

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sephiroth Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > "For all the preparation, paragraphs coloured

> in

> > with highlighter pens etc the EU is now

> > jeopardising the peace process. "

> >

> > This is a really dumb statement amongst many

> dumb

> > statements - Brexit meant this, and we told

> you.

> > You wouldn't listen then and you won't now. EU

> > hasn't forced UK to make any of the decisions

> it

> > has - UK has done that in full knowledge of

> what

> > it means.

> >

> > Own

> > Your

> > Shit

> >

> > FFS

>

>

> (Munching on a Cumberland sausage sandwich

> slathered in Coleman?s English mustard)



Keano dude, either engage in debate or be a juvenile troll. It?s up to you, I really don?t care which, but pick one and stick with it. Your whole ?now I?m serious, now I?m joking? schtick long since became tiresome.

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Furthermore, each has co-operated with the CMA and is fully supportive of all efforts to deliver overall sector improvements including better pricing transparency.   In 2022, Medivet was buying veterinary practices at great speed – 86 that year alone – so by April, it operated 390 clinics across the UK, arranged in a “hub-and-spoke” model, where smaller first-opinion practices encircled larger specialist hospitals that were open all day, every day.   Corporates were “aggressive in their acquisition strategy”, says David Reader, who teaches competition law at Glasgow University. “Rolling up of local independent practices under a single ownership umbrella for the purpose of boosting the value of the collective fleet.” Reader and his frequent collaborator Scott Summers, an expert in business law at UEA Norwich Business School, are in the middle of a project looking at the consequences of private equity and corporate control of the veterinary market. “Pet owners in rural areas, in particular, lose out when the local vet is bought and shut down,” says Summers.   But then, corporate chains were in a powerful position. 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The CMA was concerned that the new purchases squeezed out any competition in the local market.   But before an in-depth review could get under way, Medivet offered to dispose of the practices that were the subject of the merger investigation. (The same thing happened when the CMA launched a review into specific purchases by CVS, VetPartners and IVC; each offered to sell off the practices.) In October 2023, Medivet sold the 17 practices at a loss of £21.9m.   Will Chandler, 38, qualified as a vet 13 years ago. In his view, the dichotomy of corporate (bad) vs independent (good) is too simplistic. “There are some very well managed corporate clinics,” he says. They can provide better, more sophisticated equipment and more opportunities for advancement. But as lead vet for a Medivet clinic in London, where he worked for six years, it sometimes felt like “all the responsibility and none of the power”.   He describes an environment of unrelenting pressure and a culture of price inflation. He had little influence over hiring staff. “I wasn’t given any CVs, any choice about which candidates to interview.” And with a large corporate structure, “I was always on my phone at weekends, in case someone had a question. And it wasn’t even my business.”   Chandler wanted to go it alone. But he was constrained by a “non-compete” clause which prevented any veterinary business within a very tight radius around a Medivet clinic from opening. “Considering Medivet has 70-odd clinics in London, it’s almost impossible to find an area where you could set up a clinic without triggering a non-compete issue.”   ‘We’re not owned by somebody in an office in a different country’ When he heard that Medivet were selling off clinics at knockdown prices, he jumped at the opportunity. He is now the co-owner of Brockwell Vets in Herne Hill, south London. His business partner is Jenny Kalogera, a veterinary surgeon and original owner of Brockwell Vets, who’d sold it to Medivet in 2021.   “She didn’t like how it was run. Clients went elsewhere, and that was sad for her to see. When it was up for sale, I approached her. She said: ‘Why don’t we go into partnership together?’”   “People love that we are independent,” says Chandler. He is now proud to set his own prices. “We charge £49.50 for a consultation and our dental fee is around £400 – significantly cheaper than the local corporate vet.”   The Oxford Cat Clinic is another practice that was bought back from Medivet as a consequence of the CMA’s merger investigation. Weatherall, 58, had worked as the practice manager at the clinic for nine or so years when it was bought by Medivet in June 2022. She stayed on, along with the vets who’d founded the clinic 16 years before.   Barely six months later, in January 2023, the CMA started to investigate and the clinic’s relationship with Medivet was paused. “We didn’t have a lot of time to be absorbed into the great Medivet machine,” says Weatherall. But it was long enough to get an insight into how things worked.   “In a big corporate environment, you haven’t got the people who make decisions on the ground with you. It’s all centralised which is obviously more cost-effective. Which meant, for example, that we had to wait an interminable amount of time to get permission to buy anything, or if anything breaks – if a door handle comes off, you’ve got to wait for someone to come out and fix it, even though it could be driving the team mad.”   When Medivet put the Oxford Cat Clinic up for sale, Weatherall decided to buy it. “I wanted to keep it out of the hands of the corporate. It’s really good for our clients to know we’re locally run. We’re not owned by somebody who’s in an office, sometimes in a different country, even, who has no idea what’s going on.”   Melanie Weatherall: 'People are frightened to go to the vets because of the cost' Melanie Weatherall: ‘People are frightened to go to the vets because of the cost’ Credit: Harry Lawlor She talks about “pragmatic” care. “I adopted a cat recently. He was a stray. He had a damaged leg. We could have had about £3,000-plus of surgery to repair the leg, but did an amputation in the surgery because that’s a cheaper option and a reasonable option.”   There should be budget vet options, says Paul Mankelow, chief vet at the Blue Cross animal charity. “I can walk into an Aldi and know it’s a different proposition to Waitrose. Similarly, do I want to fly easyJet or Emirates? It’s very clear. But it’s not clear in the veterinary market.”   But running an independent practice is not easy. “I don’t draw any money from the business,” says Weatherall. “I earn no profit whatsoever. I want to change that.”   Sadly, it looks as if the CMA market investigation is not going to be quite as effective as everyone hoped. One of its purposes was to address alleged monopolistic pricing and ownership in the veterinary industry. But there are signs the investigation has pivoted away from the more profound problems of the corporate sector.   This January, Marcus Bokkerink stepped down as chair of the CMA, just three years into his role, as the watchdog moves to better align itself with the Government’s “push for growth”. “The Government’s strategic steer to the CMA is that it shouldn’t be doing anything which gives any outward impression that the UK is not business- or investment-friendly,” says Reader. Doug Gurr, a former head of Amazon UK, is now the interim chair.   “That doesn’t mean no regulation – we all want to see safe, high-quality care. But the system has to be fair and proportionate for both large national groups and small local practices,” says Martin Coleman, chair of the CMA’s inquiry group.   “We’re very supportive of the investigation, we’re glad it’s happening. However, one of our concerns is that the remedies won’t go far enough to put any real constraints on business, but they will go far enough to create extra work and additional paperwork for people working on the front line of veterinary medicine,” says Suzanna Hudson-Cooke, branch chairman of the British Veterinary Union in Unite.   “Initially, I thought it would be great. Now I think I was naive,” says Chandler. “As a small business, we’re looking potentially at an increase in administrative burden and we’re meant to be a clinic that the CMA looks after.”   *Names have been changed     Join the conversation   Show 481 comments The Telegraph values your comments but kindly requests all posts are on topic, constructive and respectful. Please review our commenting policy. Related Topics Telegraph long reads, Dogs, Cats, Animals                         © Telegraph Media Group Holdings Limited 2025  
    • @malumbu your original post is a bit confising with multiple, possibly unrelated,  concepts thrown together. Let's address the title of the thread. What are you looking for here, objecting to people flying their national flag? Tying to draw extreme comments out or associating flag flying with the far right ?  The real qquestion possibly is should we feel ashamed to fly the flag? Possibly not, however the reasons for flying it should not be hijacked by political or extremism motivations.  We shouldn't be ashamed of our flag, but a minority seem to be using ir to incite hatred against others.  Therefore the real debate should be around how to remove the extremist views from ability to put a flag up?  I don't have an answer and we won't get one on here but good to have a discussion that may stir a few thoughts. 
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