PCN received for being in a "bus gate" on Townley Road

[Shaila Shah]

Hi,

I was surprised to receive a PCN for driving in a bus gate on Townley Road with the junction of Calton Road. Looking at the photos sent, I am puzzled as to where else I could have driven to get to the end of the road i.e. it seems to be the only option. It was at 17.54.

Anyone else caught out like this? Or appealed against a contravention in the same location? I want to challenge it but thought I'd cast around for opinions / advice. Thanks.

[mfcjoe]

Have a look at a website called pepipoo, it's dedicated to fighting injustice on the roads, someone on there will help you/advise you. I received two of these for driving through the posh part of Dulwich, Southwark council trying to recoup their pandemic losses, it's all about money.

[legalalien]

Sheila, there isn?t another option, it?s that the road is completely closed to vehicles other than buses and bikes in one direction on weekdays 8-10 and 3-6. There are signs to this effect, people have mixed views on the quality of the signage as a large number of fines have been handed out. There?s another quite long thread on this.

[sandyman]

I'm curious to know when the offence kicks in - is it when you actually pass through the traffic lights during the prohibited times or do the cameras log you once you are queuing at the lights?

What happens if you are sitting at the lights at 2.59 and the queue is so long it tips over into the banned time - would you be penalised for doing a three point turn at the lights?

[mrwb]

Townley road is only restricted at the specified times coming from Lordship to Lane just near the junction with East dulwich grove, the bus "gate" is now at the streetview location below.

I see cars lining up there during the restrictions every single day coming the other way. It's a trap or more like a "scam" by Southwark to generate tickets. If you aren't familiar with the signs or are following a GPS you'll likely be easy prey for ?65.

You would think a bus gate, should actually have a gate to stop vehicles going through at the prescribed restricted times and only allow the bus?

The same goes for the similar restriction in Dulwich Village, which generated 22k fines in only 3 months according to FOI request posted in other thread.

[Shaila Shah]

Thanks everyone. Think I'll have to just pay it!

[SebsC]

Can I just check - the time restrictions are just for the lordship lane to East dulwich grove direction but not for the east Dulwich grove to lordship lane?

[legalalien]

SebsC yes that?s correct.

[KidKruger]

legalalien Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> SebsC yes that?s correct.

So at time of restrictions from LL onto Townley Rd (0800-1000 and 1500-1800, I think) you CAN drive down Townley from EDG ?

If so, that may explain why I failed to see the signs as I came from EDG end (I was looking for them, because I had seen them previously at the other end of Townley).

[legalalien]

I?m pretty sure that?s correct, yes.

[UlStED]

I got caught in the same 'trap' last week. Walked the route at the weekend to check for the signs as I really did not see them while I was driving. One (admittedly big) red sign is on LL but with so much text on it's impossible to read, never mind digest, while driving and paying attention to the pedestrian crossing. Another is right at the entrance to Townley Rd/LL - again, impossible to read & comprehend that amount of info while doing a right turn, watching out for pedestrians and going over the speed bump. The next sign is opposite the Alleyn's entrance and at the time I drove along (approx 3:45pm) this was fully hidden by the row of 5 coaches parked up there, and I was paying attention to the masses of school kids. Then there's a smaller sign on a patch of grass that's actually on Carlton Road and quite out of sight, and if you drive one meter further you get snapped on camera. Yes, the signs are huge and red but I'm sure simpler signs like a 'no left turn arrow plus the times' would be more adequate and effective. And why not have one final sign at the traffic light (TR/EDG junction), where people are likely to stop, giving them a final opportunity to turn right into EDG? It's clearly a money-making scheme from our cash-strapped council. Also, I can't remember residents in the SE22 area having ever received a leaflet with info on this new scheme.

I've seen examples of representations which pick out that the PCN states that Southwark would take an enforcement step before the law permits them to. However, it seems that Southwark have now amended that wording from the original "If payment has not been made by the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice a Charge Certificate may be issued", to "If payment has not been made before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice", so I'm not sure I have a leg to stand on but would really resent having to pay the PCN.

Seems like lots of people are in the same boat and there are various threads on this already. Wonder what can be done about it other than people trying individually to get their own representations through and choosing a different route next time?

[EDRH1114090399]

We were also caught out by the camera at the end of Townley Road and also in Dulwich Village. We agree with UIStED that this is obviously a money making scheme for Southwark Council, as the signage is inadequate, and that residents were not informed about the road priority changes.

We were sent 3 PCNs, one for Townley Road and two for Dulwich village. One of the Dulwich village PCNs was dated 50 days after the alleged contravention. The council is legally obliged to send out a PCN within 28 days of a contravention, therefore any PCN dated more than 28 days after the contravention is INVALID, and you do not have to pay the fine. Of the other two, we appealed for the reasons already mentioned (after the 14 day discount period had ended). By law, all issuing authorities have a maximum of 56 days to respond to your appeal. In addition to this, if an authority has it's own stated policy on its response time to an appeal, the are obliged to follow it. Southwark council is legally obliged to respond to email appeals within 21 days. They have still not responded after a month. This means that the PCNs are now invalid.

It's good to know that the council are legally obliged to follow their own stated policies and that they are also obligated to respond within a given timeframe. If they fail to do this the PCN is invalidated. We have seen on various earlier threads that the council in the beginning did respond to appeals but it looks as though they are no longer doing so - this could be because they have already reached a financial target (having made 2.5 million pounds with just 3 cameras over a 3 month period - posted in a previous thread).

We're posting this simply to say what our experience was and to point out that the council also has obligations. If you feel for whatever reason that a PCN has been issued unfairly then ALWAYS APPEAL. If the council do actually respond and reject your appeal within 21 days then you can take the appeal higher, to the London Tribunals, who are independent adjudicators, and will judge the case on its merits in an impartial way.