Genuine question for people who refuse to wear masks.

[TheCat]

Just read a second opinion feature in the Graun over the past week or so arguing that care workers in old people's homes shouldn't be forced to have the jabs....as they might leave if forced to, and there's already a shortage of care home workers.

I totally agree. Why should they be forced to have a jab just to keep their jobs caring for other people's wellbeing??

While we're at it.....I've a few more suggestions...

We should allow people on building site and heavy engineering settings to not wear any of their required PPE, if they would prefer not to. Becuase some of them may leave if they need to adhere to Health and Safety requirements; and we dont want a shortage of house building do we!?

We should allow alcoholic pilots and bus drivers to continue working as they might leave if asked to quit turning up for work drunk

We should definitely allow convicted child abusers to work with children, as there's a shortage of teachers apparently....

Anyway...you see where im going with this....I've never heard such a ludicrous non-argument to just forget about safeguarding/health and safety in employment.....

[fishbiscuits]

Yeah I think the reality is that some jobs are just going to need it.

I heard that a small number of GB Olympic athletes + staff had refused vaccination. While I agree that it's their personal choice, I think it's also fair that they should have to face the consequences (i.e. not going).

[ianr]

Ronnijade wrote:

-----------------

> It?s also been scientifically proven

> that wearing a mask doesn?t inhibit

> your oxygen levels whatsoever, so...

> I call BS on a certain post on

> this thread. Ahem.

What do you make of this paper, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8050876/, which was cited in this thread in the Covid-19 section https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?32,2209397?

[Spartacus]

I wonder if there are mixed messages being presented by some businesses in their advertising.

For example the new Tesco advert where the lady zooms around zapping prices with her club card, not a single person in the supermarket is wearing a mask which could normalise non compliance in some people's eyes.

Whilst we hope not to need them soon, over the past year why haven't advertisers modified adverts to help reinforce the mask indoors rules ?

[JohnL]

Some of them say "This advert was shot before Covid" at the bottom.

That excuse is running out now though

[fishbiscuits]

Spartacus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Whilst we hope not to need them soon

Cases are rising VERY quickly. The spike in cases we're about to see will (I think) dwarf the previous one.

Even if vaccinated you can still get pretty ill for a week or so... I think we'll be wearing masks for a long time to come.

[diable rouge]

Yep, it does feel like the Gov is pinning everything on the vaccine and everything can go back to normal after the 19th. People seem to be forgetting that the vaccine isn't a cure, merely reduces the severity i.e. hospitalisation/death, and that people can still catch it, pass it on, and some will be very poorly. Personally I'll continue to wear a mask if I feel the situation warrants it...

[fishbiscuits]

In recent months, talk of vaccine effectiveness has shifted from protecting against infection, to protecting against hospitalization. I do not know how effective Pfizer/AZ are against contracting the Delta variant, but I suspect the answer is... "not great, but it helps".

Israel probably thought they had the problem cracked, with most adults fully vaccinated with Pfizer, and both cases and deaths at a very low level... almost "background noise". But all of a sudden, delta variant is taking over and cases are spiking. They have re-introduced masks in indoor spaces.

I think we are about to see Covid sweep through the nation very aggressively indeed. With no further lockdowns likely, government policy will be to let it run its course.. most of us will catch it. The vaccinations will be a massive help but I think the deaths will go back up into the 100s every day before the end of summer. (I hope I am wrong, of course).

[Sephiroth]

in your day to day activities, how would you rate mask compliance at the moment

on trains seem to be the worst - about 50/50

supermarkets are better at about 80% I would say

[fishbiscuits]

Not been on public transport in 18 months. I walk/run most places. Drive or take a taxi for longer distances.

I'd put supermarkets above 80% actually, for mask wearing. As with most measures, masks probably only help a little bit, but nevertheless definitely worthwhile.

[Spartacus]

Fishbiscuits, I think you are right about needing to wear masks for a lot longer.

Although a lot of people who do bother to wear them where required seem to pay "lip service" to the concept by leaving their noses exposed or wearing the mask as a chin guard only.

This includes on public transport and strangely when walking around in hospitals.

The other weird thing is people who remove masks to talk loudly on their phone. It doesn't make a difference to the call quality but does spread droplets as they jabber away.

They seem to forget that the mask isn't only there to protect them, but those around them too.

[Seabag]

Covid cases up, people walk around ?mask fatigued? or maskless.

It?s really not to difficult to see where it?ll head. And when twats like Hancock and CO seemingly flout the rules/advice then how do we expect regular people to volunteer to wear masks etc?

We can?t

[teddyboy23]

Another variant called lambda is said to be more infectious than the delta variant .this variant is in Brazil Peru Columbia and other south American countries.6 possible cases could be here .

[BrandNewGuy]

Hospitalisations and deaths are very low, according to the ONS, despite the increase in cases. Newer variants might be more infectious than previous ones, but they appear to be milder.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19/latestinsights#overview

[Spartacus]

There's an interesting question over what's going to cause more resistance to following the rules.

A politician having an affair or the images of sports people at events like the euros and Wimbledon hugging and shaking hands and the proximity of crowd members to each other?

Basically both are as bad as each other and as seabag said people are getting mask fatigue.

It's not being helped with infections going up and Javid saying that "there's a compelling argument for easing covid restrictions" and "we also need to be clear that cases are going to rise significantly"

It's giving the green light to ignore restrictions now and it's going to end with more tears than Gazza during italia 90.

[KidKruger]

Spartacus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's not being helped with infections going up and

> Javid saying that "there's a compelling argument

> for easing covid restrictions" and "we also need

> to be clear that cases are going to rise

> significantly"

>

Yep. It?s scary.

Propa scary.

Only goes one way this.

South.

[fishbiscuits]

Yep. The spike in cases is just beginning, I feel. It's going to shoot up massively, I just hope that vaccines prevent the deaths returning to 100s a day.

[KidKruger]

The problems are a whole load of unvaccinated numpties spreading it, more leeway as a result for new mutations to evolve, no accounting for long Covid, limited understanding of what long Covid for the Delta variant looks like, and while this is happening pronouncing masks are discretionary.

During a pandemic.

Right.

[fishbiscuits]

Bit more nuanced I feel... as the vaccinated can still contract and spread (albeit with a lower probability). As can schoolchildren.

But of course vaccine hesitancy is a major issue too.

I will be wearing masks in shops and avoiding public transport for a long while to come...

[JohnL]

Simplistic calculation:

So if vaccine efficacy is 90% and we had a death rate of 1700 at the last peak

If cases go up to the last peak can we expect about 170 per day at this peak ?

[Spartacus]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Simplistic calculation:

>

> So if vaccine efficacy is 90% and we had a death

> rate of 1700 at the last peak

>

> If cases go up to the last peak can we expect

> about 170 per day at this peak ?

Is it as simple as that ?

With vaccination it breaks the chain of infection (but doesn't eliminate it)

Reducing infection reduces the number of people who each infected person can also infect

Vaccination assists in reducing the chance of serious hospital admissions and the need for ventilation

So whilst there will be an uptick in deaths, I think the calculation of 170 above needs to be taken with caution but still a worrying number of people will die that shouldn't have.

However nothing will be true if the next variant gets through anti bodies / vaccinations then we will be back at the start of the pandemic again 😱

[KidKruger]

...and after several cycles of this (and many more deaths) some people might start wearing masks and adhering to safety measures.

[ianr]

> So if vaccine efficacy is 90% and we had

> a death rate of 1700 at the last peak

>

> If cases go up to the last peak can we

> expect about 170 per day at this peak ?

Recent figures suggest ~90% effectiveness against hospitalisation for the fully vaccinated. https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?32,2215833,2215932#msg-2215932. If you want predicted death rates you should probably take into account a deaths per hospitalisation rate.

There are also the chronic effects, that some experience, to take into account. Some of them seem to remit, albeit after months, some may turn out to be permanent damage.

[diable rouge]

Spartacus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> However nothing will be true if the next variant

> gets through anti bodies / vaccinations then we

> will be back at the start of the pandemic again

The Gov is basically gambling that a more severe variant the vaccines can't cope with doesn't emerge. If we had a Gov that had a track record of dealing with previous new severe variants quickly and soundly, then I could give them a bit of leeway with such a strategy, but we don't. They were slow to react to both the Kent and Delta variants, the former with terrible consequences, while we've yet to see the full consequences of their inertia over Delta.

I don't understand why there's this ideological obsession with relaxing all restrictions on the 19th while there's still a sizeable percentage of the population that is unvaccinated and the Delta variant is clearly on the rise.

The public were overwhelmingly behind the lockdowns despite what Tory backbenchers would have you believe, and I'm sure an equally large majority would support retaining some restrictions such as mandatory wearing of masks on public transport, in shops etc...

[Spartacus]

DR

Truth in all that you say

There seems to be some pressure by back benches / others to unlock but they aren't in the firing line if it goes wrong (which I prey it won't)