Two World Wars and one world cup - English superiority complex?

[malumbu]

All it a bit barmy that some England fans still sing this, I don't find it either amusing or ironic.

I could list the number of times that Germany, Italy, France and Spain have won major tournaments. England is quite a simple number.

The particular rivalry with the Germans is a particular strange one seeing as our cultures are pretty close, they are still fond of the UK as we were pre WWII when many, including some of our own German royal family, were supporters of Hitler.

Despite all this English bashing I still want England to win tomorrow, although five years ago shortly post referendum, when I was in France, expecting to go to the France/England quarter final, I was pleased to see Iceland instead. The Iceland fans were great. I still managed to see an English fan get arrested for some nonsense on the station going back.

Anyway thought serious and amusing welcome. Preferably by kick off tomorrow.

[JohnL]

Mostly they just sing '3 lions on a shirt' these days when I see them (I guess I'm lucky).

Reminds me of the Germans singing their version of it after winning Euro96 at Wembley. Not sure what the German version translated as.

[fishbiscuits]

Half of me actually wants England to win.

But the other half of me would just dread the inevitable cringeworthy behaviour and headlines so much, that I almost want England to lose. Chanting "Four Lions" and "The Great Escape", talk for years to come of how we (finally) beat "Ze Germans". The flag waving. The stench of spilled Stella, vomit and piss.

[KidKruger]

? The flag waving. The stench of spilled Stella, vomit and piss.?

Aaah, the English ?culture? so many seem to be fiercely proud of.

[TheCat]

I get the specific problems with 'football holliganism/'Brits abroad' etc etc.....but...man, as a foreigner I find it quite sad that so many of you have such a sh!tty view of your own country (and countrymen).....

Not making a judgement call on whether its right or wrong. Just saying its quite striking, and a shame.

Perhaps the concept of english exceptionalism goes both ways..i.e. half the population thinks you're exceptionally superior...while the other half thinks you're exceptionally inferior....neither are probably right....

[KidKruger]

I think there are good and bad things about England and it?s population, commenting on either is just observation isn?t it ?

I?m not sure there?s a starting point of everything must be spoken of with awe if it?s your own country - unless one is blindly ?patriotic?.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I like the way the UK isn't blindly 'patriotic' like some are in the US for example. I love the fact that we're self depreciating, self critical, a bit wry / cynical about our nation. Make's me proud to be British. ;-)

[diable rouge]

JohnL Wrote:

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> Reminds me of the Germans singing their version of

> it after winning Euro96 at Wembley. Not sure what

> the German version translated as.

I can only remember them singing the chorus...in perfect English :)

[fishbiscuits]

TheCat Wrote:

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> Perhaps the concept of english exceptionalism goes

> both ways..i.e. half the population thinks you're

> exceptionally superior...while the other half

> thinks you're exceptionally inferior....neither

> are probably right....

Yeah well.. I think we probably all know which half thinks we're special! And it's slightly over half... 52% to be precise.

Patriotism is a funny thing... I think there are too many things I dislike in our culture and history to feel truly patriotic, but even more pertinently, it's also a slippery slope to something a bit more sinister. That isn't to say that the Brits DO have plenty to feel proud of.

You're an Aussie, aren't you? I always found the Australian sense of patriotism quite odd. Rewind 20 years ago and it seemed as though every young Australian living in London (and there were a LOT!) would basically never shut up about how awesome it is back home. Purely anecdotal of course, but I often found this overt boastfulness quite jarring. Not that they were necessarily wrong.

[TheCat]

fishbiscuits Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Perhaps the concept of english exceptionalism

> goes

> > both ways..i.e. half the population thinks

> you're

> > exceptionally superior...while the other half

> > thinks you're exceptionally inferior....neither

> > are probably right....

>

> Yeah well.. I think we probably all know which

> half thinks we're special! And it's slightly over

> half... 52% to be precise.

Hmmmmmm...i'll let that one go through to the keeper I think.....:)

>

> Patriotism is a funny thing... I think there are

> too many things I dislike in our culture and

> history to feel truly patriotic, but even more

> pertinently, it's also a slippery slope to

> something a bit more sinister. That isn't to say

> that the Brits DO have plenty to feel proud of.

Sure...and the idea of self-deprecation/ability to laugh at one-self as (mentioned above by Rah) is indeed a virtue of the British in my mind (certainly versus the stereotypical US patriotism...."USA, Number 1!"). But more recently the self-deprecation in a lot of public discussion I think appears to be more veering into self-loathing....its subjective, but just my take.

>

> You're an Aussie, aren't you? I always found the

> Australian sense of patriotism quite odd. Rewind

> 20 years ago and it seemed as though every young

> Australian living in London (and there were a

> LOT!) would basically never shut up about how

> awesome it is back home. Purely anecdotal of

> course, but I often found this overt boastfulness

> quite jarring. Not that they were necessarily

> wrong.

I could wax lyrical about this for quite some time. By virtue of the fact that Australia is geographically isolated, (and lets be honest is a pretty decent place to live) - Australians that have never left Australia are the worst:) ("Straya?...best plaaace in the woooooooooorld mate!...why would I ever want to go anywhere else?!!!")....closely followed by those young aussies who are 'just off the boat' when arriving in places like the UK (as you refer to)...who can be rather cringewrothy indeed in broadcasting how something is so much better 'back home'. So I dont disagree with your characterisation of those young aussies living in London (I, no doubt, used to be one!). But as I say...I think for most aussies who agree with me on views on our fellow countrymen, its stops at 'cringeworthy' and 'slightly annoying'; as compared to the more visceral English/Britsh bashing which I see more of these days as referenced above in my first post....

[JohnL]

The Wales players actually got a bit stroppy because no fans were allowed to Amsterdam and a few things were said - I think they found it galling all the neutrals favoured Denmark and it felt like the most away of away games. Also they're a bit fed up of Baku.

Doesn't really make much headlines though - except in the Wales on Sunday.

[fishbiscuits]

TheCat Wrote:

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> as compared to the more visceral

> English/Britsh bashing which I see more of these

> days as referenced above in my first post....

I think that one is simply because there are so many dickheads in England!

[diable rouge]

TheCat Wrote:

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> ...the more visceral English/Britsh bashing which I see more of these days...

Post-referendum perchance?...

[DuncanW]

Malumbu, you might be over-thinking this a bit.

I've heard that song (and other worse ones) in the past, but haven't heard it recently. And that particular one isn't the end of the world in my opinion, anyway.

There's far too much focus on the pockets of idiots who follow our national team, and who are at odds with the vast majority of football fans in England.

I for one am proud to be English and will be cheering on loudly from the comfort of my own home this evening, and not being overly concerned if Barry from Market Harborough doesn't approve of our players taking the knee or whatever. They will do it anyway, and most England fans will support them in that action.

[fishbiscuits]

Yes I suppose you are right Duncan, the idiots make a disproportionate amount of noise, but I'm sure not representative of the majority of fans. Enjoy the game.

[diable rouge]

Well, the Mirror seems to have grown up in the intervening years...

NB. Piers Morgan was the editor at the time and later apologised on TV...

[JohnL]

Who was Editor at that time

"As editor of the Daily Mirror, Morgan apologised on television for the headline (rendered in upper case) "Achtung Surrender! For You Fritz Ze Euro Championship Is Over" on 25 June 1996"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piers_Morgan

[diable rouge]

[fishbiscuits]

Great attitude there from Ze Ger... ah dammit...

[JohnL]

Good old Germany - supportive in every way.

But come penalty time :)

[malumbu]

Hmmm, my limited experience of 'England' fans. Manaus 2014, a few days after the England/Italy match, middle aged men dressed as knights Templers telling me of their distaste for the locals (Hodgson criticised the town and turned the locals against England), and that they didn't like the yanks too (who had much more creative chants). They'd drop in a comment now and then about how they would have so and so fans if they had a chance. Cologne 2006. Lovely cosmopolitan city withy fans of all persuasions mixing, having sing-offs across al fresco bars. England fans arrive and the whole atmosphere changes. The early English arrivals I spoke to said how wonderful the city was and how none of the German stereotypes applied.

Let's face it a lot of England fans are old school (or now young school hoolies) from the lower divisions where the sport has yet to be gentrified.

Highly selective views of course, and if there was a thread about gentrification of the national sport I'd be bemoaning the loss of it's working class roots.

I like some of the chants from the continental fans in this championship. I'm sure I could hear a "la la la la la, Dulwich Hamlet", and a "oh Jeremy Corbyn"

[Seabag]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I get the specific problems with 'football

> holliganism/'Brits abroad' etc etc.....but...man,

> as a foreigner I find it quite sad that so many of

> you have such a sh!tty view of your own country

> (and countrymen).....

>

> Not making a judgement call on whether its right

> or wrong. Just saying its quite striking, and a

> shame.

>

> Perhaps the concept of english exceptionalism goes

> both ways..i.e. half the population thinks you're

> exceptionally superior...while the other half

> thinks you're exceptionally inferior....neither

> are probably right....

It?s not a shame, it?s easy to love the country (I do) but not much of the culture.

And bear in mind, back in the day ?we? sent your relatives to Australia as a punishment, that?s how nice we are.

[j.a.]

@cat

A quote I found elsewhere which sums it up better than I can:

?There is a very prevalent attitude that any criticism of the country is somehow one ?hating? ones country. Never have I heard anyone who holds such views comment on whether one can love ones country through criticism. Can I not want us to be better than this? Is that not allowed??

[TheCat]

Seabag Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I get the specific problems with 'football

> > holliganism/'Brits abroad' etc

> etc.....but...man,

> > as a foreigner I find it quite sad that so many

> of

> > you have such a sh!tty view of your own country

> > (and countrymen).....

> >

> > Not making a judgement call on whether its

> right

> > or wrong. Just saying its quite striking, and a

> > shame.

> >

> > Perhaps the concept of english exceptionalism

> goes

> > both ways..i.e. half the population thinks

> you're

> > exceptionally superior...while the other half

> > thinks you're exceptionally inferior....neither

> > are probably right....

>

> It?s not a shame, it?s easy to love the country (I

> do) but not much of the culture.

>

> And bear in mind, back in the day ?we? sent your

> relatives to Australia as a punishment, that?s how

> nice we are.

No one sent my relatives anywhere. They moved to Australia in the 1950's....a few years after the convicts.....

But regardless.....at least you all should have reason to unite together after the result just now.....

[Seabag]

Haaaaa?

The Cat, love the ?after the convicts? comment

😂👌🏼