PCN for driving in Dulwich village, help please!

[Jules-and-Boo]

It's shame that satnavs are not updated with changes to road restrictions.

[renarde]

indeed

[EDRH1114090399]

Hi Everyone, It's difficult to know which message to respond to so chose this as it asked about anyone successfully appealing these PCNs. We had been sent 4 in fairly quick succession - we won't go into details as it's very similar to everyone else's reports.

The important thing is to say that we appealed all 4 to Southwark and received 4 virtually identical letters rejecting the appeals (even though the alleged contraventions had occurred at different locations). We then appealed to the London Tribunals (formerly called the Parking Adjudicator) and here is the link: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/online-appeals. The phone call appeal was yesterday, and the Council did not bother to have somebody join the call, and had not sent most of the paperwork to the Adjudicator. The Adjudicator contacted us this morning to say firstly that the Council were not contesting 3 of the 4 appeals - although they had sent us letters stating that they had rejected all 4 appeals. The one live appeal was upheld by the adjudicator.

Please, if you have received a PCN don't be put off by people saying the fines will go up and up and that you will be taken to court, bailiffs sent round and your property confiscated to pay the costs. This only happens in very extreme cases where thousands of pounds are owed.

Our experience has highlighted how disorganized and chaotic the Council parking department is. They obviously do not read appeals properly and automatically send out rejection letters - which people may well pay. If they haven't taken it to the adjudicator they would never find out that they didn't have to pay the PCN. Indeed in the 4 rejection letters, the Council said that they were still prepared to accept ?65 per PCN (despite having said they would increase it to ?130 if we didn't pay within 14 days) and they also stated that if we went to the adjudicator it would increase to ?130. Their tactics are obviously to scare people into paying them.

Finally, we have previously gone to the adjudicator a number of times with other councils and they have always upheld our appeals so please don't be put off going this route. Obviously, this just our experience and there's no guarantees, but you won't know unless you try. Remember that the Adjudicator is truly impartial and independent of the councils so you will get a fair decision.

[EDRH1114090399]

Hello everyone

Everything Tilt said is correct, you must follow the process. Don't the ignore the PCN.

Some advice for Sally Eva and AylwardS. If you're going to advise please give all the facts.

Read the following on bailiff's (https://www.gov.uk/your-rights-bailiffs):

You might be arrested if you do not pay criminal debts, such as fines or penalty notices.

Dealing with bailiffs

You usually do not have to open your door to a bailiff or let them in.

Bailiffs cannot enter your home:

by force, for example by pushing past you

if only children under 16 or vulnerable people (with disabilities, for example) are present

between 9pm and 6am

through anything except the door

Bailiffs are allowed to force their way into your home to collect unpaid criminal fines, Income Tax or Stamp Duty, but only as a last resort.

If you do not let a bailiff in or agree to pay them:

they could take things from outside your home, for example your car

you could end up owing even more money

If you do let a bailiff in but do not pay them they may take some of your belongings. They could sell the items to pay debts and cover their fees.

You may be able to get extra time to make a payment or get debt advice if you?re a vulnerable person (for example, you have mental health problems or are seriously ill).

Now everyone you can make an informed decision about what to do about a PCN.

[AylwardS]

I understand how a driver could miss the signage I did but thankfully didn?t get a penalty. I went back on foot and though not great it looks to meet legal requirements.

EDHR I still believe what I said could be a consequence. I did say the legal position may have changed. Your experience shows that it might not come to that but it could.

The link you have provided may detail your rights and anyone thinking of ignoring a penalty can read that and decide if a bailiff was on my doorstep would I be confident in sticking to my rights? I?m not sure I would if confronted with a bailiff who knocks on people?s doors each day and will have dealt with the situation umpteen times before.

The link you provided is guidance not law but as you say does say

?If you do not let a bailiff in or agree to pay them:

* they could take things from outside your home, for example your car

* you could end up owing even more money?

Anyone who has had a PCN needs to decide what they want to do next. I?ve given possible legal consequences as they were and you?ve given experience with the council so anyone deciding should understand what any decision they make could mean.

Re what Tilt said ?you? for a formal appeal after the Notice to Owner is issued is the registered keeper at DVLA so if it?s a hire company or company car that won?t be you the driver.

One piece of personal knowledge people might want to consider. I know of people who had their car clamped and even taken by bailiffs for unpaid parking charges. Not the first approach taken but it happens.

[tiddles]

What frustrates me is that the signage is not very prominent and the gap between the infringement and the issuing of the penalty- a small local business that works in the area (dulwich village in particular) managed to incur around 25 pcns before realising their mistake - a gap of 5-8 weeks before the first fines dropped thru the letterbox.

[Sally Eva]

what Tilt said ?you? for a formal appeal after

> the Notice to Owner is issued is the registered

> keeper at DVLA so if it?s a hire company or

> company car that won?t be you the driver.

>

The driver is the person responsible so if that person was driving a hire or company car, then the penalty will be delayed by the detour via the hire company. It will still be payable.

This couple thought they were being clever by switching the driver https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16866127.

[first mate]

Good grief, that is crazy. What is the total it has cost them?

tiddles Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What frustrates me is that the signage is not very

> prominent and the gap between the infringement and

> the issuing of the penalty- a small local business

> that works in the area (dulwich village in

> particular) managed to incur around 25 pcns before

> realising their mistake - a gap of 5-8 weeks

> before the first fines dropped thru the letterbox.

[dresswaves]

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's shame that satnavs are not updated with

> changes to road restrictions.

No help to anyone who's already been fined but the Waze app seems to update its info very quickly. It's certainly has the Dulwich restrictions marked & gives alternative routes depending on time of day. I'd be lost without it!!

[tiddles]

It?s over ?1000 as they appealed on the basis of unclear signage and massive delays in receiving notice of wrongdoing- and of course the fines escalated whilst being appealed

[Jules20]

Does anyone know if these restrictions apply on bank holiday Mondays ie today? Thanks

[ed_pete]

I think they do - Mon-Fri - regardless.

[Jules20]

Ah crap, another PCN in the post for me?

[Lula]

Does anyone know if fines apply if you drive down Court Lane to use the park? Ie not looking for a route through the Village.

[Alan Medic]

I'm pretty sure the answer to that is yes. I think there's a sign at the Lordship Lane end of it.

[Moovart]

There are no fines for driving down court lane and back out again.

[Dimelda]

To: Renarde. You relied on SatNav !! You'd have been better off with an A-Z map. Might be old-fashioned, but at least it would have shown you alternative routes to your destination ... which SatNav couldn't provide.

[MCMC]

Dear All,

Refuse to pay and quote London Tribunal Case Number: 2210358293

The PCN was not upheld as the signage into the area and the ability to turn around as you realise you are about to be fined are not adequate.

Xx

[renarde]

thank you, at last a constructive bit of info.

Annie

[horse666]

See also my message today on the related thread https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,2180997,2235730#REPLY

In summary, I had three PCNs that were issued by Southwark on Townley Road cancelled after an online appeal to the London Tribunals website. I argued that the signage is inadequate (obscured and misaligned signs on the entry from Lordship Lane).

That experimental traffic order needs to just be removed as it's clearly a revenue stream trap for local residents.

[horse666]

FYI, the case reference for my London Tribunals appeal for Townley Road PCNs, which was upheld, is 2210516612.

[cacaolat]

I just got my appeal allowed for driving through the restriction in Townley Road. My main argument was that the sign is not directly next to the lane, but there is a cycling lane inbetween , which is separated by bollards.

The information below should be useful to anyone who also got a ticket and wants to appeal. Just be patient. The council will refuse the appeal, as they always do, but there is the independent adjudicator.

Here is what the adjudicator said:

However, although the one sign that is at the location is that prescribed by Diagram 953 at Item 33 in

Part 2 of Schedule 3 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, being a permitted

variant thereof, as indicating 'route for use by buses, pedal cycles and taxis', it is the only sign and is

not immediately adjacent to the lane in which the vehicle is seen to travel, but rather it is on a fenced

island with a cycle lane in between. There is no other Diagram 953 sign at this point of the road.

[IainJ]

Make sure you submit an objection to Southwark, the deadline is TODAY.

See the Dulwich Alliance website for guidance how to do it:

https://www.onedulwich.uk/news/last-chance-to-object?ss_source=sscampaigns&ss_campaign_id=618abc664fa74306bf6072ca&ss_email_id=618ad7a2754e0a265f09307f&ss_campaign_name=Campaign+Update+%7C+9+Nov&ss_campaign_sent_date=2021-11-09T20%3A19%3A00Z