The legacy of Hugo Chavez

[david_carnell]

How do you view the man, what he achieved, his methods and his legacy?

[StraferJack]

media of all types full of binary opinions, but this blog *from music journo Dorian Lynskey - so unliely to be most qualified, and yet...) seems the best summary I've come across so far

http://33revolutionsperminute.wordpress.com/2013/03/06/assessing-hugo-chavez-1954-2013/

[????]

Improved dramatically the lot of the poor to electorate success, wether this will last in the long term will be the ultimate test...my suspicion is it was all on the credit card, but oil wealth has been spent far less fairly and unpleasantly in other oil rich places. So the binary view looks simplistic. Shade of the Perons for me.

[BrandNewGuy]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Improved dramatically the lot of the poor to

> electorate success, wether this will last in the

> long term will be the ultimate test...my suspicion

> is it was all on the credit card, but oil wealth

> has been spent far less fairly and unpleasantly in

> other oil rich places. So the binary view looks

> simplistic. Shade of the Perons for me.

He onnly improved the lot of the poor by doling out oil money and nationalised industry cash. Not a good idea in the long term. Kudos to him for sticking up two fingers to the corrupt pro-USA oligarchs that preceded him, but thumbs down for the support for dictators elsewhere and the inability to see that the long-term prosperity of Venezuela must rely on a thriving local private sector - which is not the same as the hated Yankee corporations. Venezuela's economy is now embarrassingly mediocre given its oil wealth and I fear the Peron analogy will come to be seen as close to the truth.

[Worker]

Agree with most of that BNG.

Generally, I'm suspicious of any leader whose death provokes mass hysteria. Kim Jong-il, Ayatollah Khomeini, Princess Di.

[Jeremy]

I think most people admire (to varying degrees) the way he redistributed oil wealth to benefit the poor.

But he made the country an impossible envrionment for foreign investment, in the long term his country will suffer for his ideology.

[DaveR]

I agree with much of the above, but the thing that tips the scales for me is that even Chavez, the champion of the poor, couldn't resist plundering his country's wealth for the personal benefit of himself and his family.

[david_carnell]

DaveR - I wan't aware of this. Do you have a link to any info on that?

[James Barber]

As with most oil economies he appears to have spent it liberally on the poor but in the process killed the economy - they're borrowing large sums form China.

So whatever peoples views of what Chavez did it's entirely unsustainable.

It's a shame he couldnt have acheived greater equality in a lasting way.

The economy there, despite oil wealth, is under performing as it has for a number of years its neighbours. Large number of mega currency devlautions. So long term the current policies will lead to greater poverty and a mega crunch. Very sad.

[El Pibe]

"As with most oil economies he appears to have spent it liberally on the poor"

errrrrr...most oil economies are kleptocratic, they're rarely particularly magnanimous socially speaking.

And everybody is 'borrowing large sums from china'. It's not like we all go to the bank of china applying for loans.

We issue bonds and hope the market buys them, apart from the usual institutional types, the biggest buyer of national debt is China, for everyone.

This oft repeated refrain is a total red herring.

The economy was tanking before Chavez took power and he has reined in the worst excesses of rampant corruption that was by and large responsible for those troubles.

The economy isn't in dire straits now, it's just that compared to boom in Brazil and a resurgent Argentina (as fragile as that is) it could be said to have underperformed and not diversified from oil enough, but hardly a damning indictment of is it. And given S. Aerica's depressingly long history of popular coups turned bloody juntas, the past fifteen years have ben remarkably stable and peaceful.

Considering the abysmal human rights records and concentration of wealth in the leadership of our oil rich allies in the arabian peninsular or west africa, Venezuala is practically bloody Norway.

He seems to have become a pariah for daring to thumb his nose at the Monroe Doctrine frankly.

I for one will miss him if only for the donkey speech!!

[The Chair]

Amen

[DaveR]

"DaveR - I wan't aware of this. Do you have a link to any info on that?"

It has been reported quite widely - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/18/hugo-chavez-revolution-corruption-claims

"he has reined in the worst excesses of rampant corruption that was by and large responsible for those troubles"

unfortunately that doesn't seem to be true either:

http://www.transparency.org/country#VEN_DataResearch_SurveysIndices

I think the best that can be said for Chavez is that, whilst he doersn't come anywhere near to living up to his own hype or that of some of his supporters, looking at the history of South American leaders, he could have been worse. This:

"He seems to have become a pariah for daring to thumb his nose at the Monroe Doctrine frankly"

is definitely letting him off the hook.

[LadyDeliah]

El Pibe Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "As with most oil economies he appears to have

> spent it liberally on the poor"

>

> errrrrr...most oil economies are kleptocratic,

> they're rarely particularly magnanimous socially

> speaking.

>

> And everybody is 'borrowing large sums from

> china'. It's not like we all go to the bank of

> china applying for loans.

> We issue bonds and hope the market buys them,

> apart from the usual institutional types, the

> biggest buyer of national debt is China, for

> everyone.

> This oft repeated refrain is a total red herring.

>

> The economy was tanking before Chavez took power

> and he has reined in the worst excesses of rampant

> corruption that was by and large responsible for

> those troubles.

>

> The economy isn't in dire straits now, it's just

> that compared to boom in Brazil and a resurgent

> Argentina (as fragile as that is) it could be said

> to have underperformed and not diversified from

> oil enough, but hardly a damning indictment of is

> it. And given S. Aerica's depressingly long

> history of popular coups turned bloody juntas, the

> past fifteen years have ben remarkably stable and

> peaceful.

>

> Considering the abysmal human rights records and

> concentration of wealth in the leadership of our

> oil rich allies in the arabian peninsular or west

> africa, Venezuala is practically bloody Norway.

>

> He seems to have become a pariah for daring to

> thumb his nose at the Monroe Doctrine frankly.

>

> I for one will miss him if only for the donkey

> speech!!

Totally agree. Has done more for the poor in Venezuela than all of his detractors.

[Chillaxed]

I don't think comparing Chavez favourably to 'oil rich allies in the arabian peninsular or west africa' in any way validates his leadership.

[squince]

Chillaxed Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't think comparing Chavez favourably to 'oil

> rich allies in the arabian peninsular or west

> africa' in any way validates his leadership.

i agree

an inspiration for his people, people of the region and progressives around the world

innovations in socialist transformation and democracy we can all learn from and will be the focus of discussion in future south London forums at Goldsmiths 30th April https://www.facebook.com/events/461366510600538/ and Lewisham TUC on May 14th for south east London trade union members-email [email protected] for details

his legacy is great and the people will continue the transformation for as long as US intervention is not successful-but they are pumping in millions to opposition parties

[Jeremy]

Well that's settled, then.

[Huguenot]

Spoken like a true revolutionary squince :D

In the Mills & Boon romance of international socialism the dark satanic mills of the 1850s are still rolling, and the Trots are still there to save the proletariat from the robber barons.

[squince]

yes huguenot:

Chavez does inspire true revolutionaries and many many more

the first urban based revolution since 1917, very democratic, progressive on gay and lesbian rights, indigenous and afro descent rights,women's rights a revolution frorm the bottom and the top- 40,000 community councils run mainly by women running communities, targeting resources, participative democracy-for and by the community-the country's wealth used for education and free health-not on offshore banks for a few wealth billionaires-a regional and global inspiration

see forthcoming events by writing to [email protected] (lgvic above out of date)

also come along to this http://www.lewishamstopwar.org.uk/goldsmithsSTWvenezuela.pdf

[Huguenot]

Haha :)) that's your summary of the Chavez era?

Leaving aside its accuracy, you are aware that apart from the nationalization of resources you have just described most liberal modern democracies?

It speaks to the occluded vision of suburban revolutionaries that you couldn't see is as you wrote it.

By your description, the Chavez revolution was only to take on the attributes of modern Britain.

The next question is accuracy. Did Chavez really achieve all these things, or is it no more than the usual revolutionary rosy veneer over a seething mass of corrupt self interested autocrats?

[JedMk2]

^^^ Knob ^^^

[Huguenot]

Who, me? Not really much of a contribution.

[JedMk2]

Where did my post go?!

[Loz]

I suspect an admin removed it for personal abuse reasons.

[JedMk2]

So personal abuse isn?t allowed but abuse dressed around a barrage of long words that I don't understand is? There seems to be loads of abuse in a lot of threads like this. Actually seems more like bullying.

I never really went to school so consider myself to be fairly uneducated but that doesn't mean that I, and others, don't have valid opinions. The aggressive nature and intellectual bullying of some users on this site is appalling. I remember a recent post on another thread that was met with a response of 'Let me point out your fairly obvious mistake'. I'm not saying that some of the responses have no value but the way in which they delivered is ill considered and breeds contempt. Some users remind me of Jeremy Kyle, exploiting and embarrassing people of lesser social or educational understanding in order to achieve some sort of megalomaniac self appreciation.

Some might say toughen up but I was brought up to treat people the way I wanted to be treated. That goes for in person and online. Whereas I here things from other members like 'He's alright in person' so what makes being behind a computer completely change a personality?

Come on people encourage new users don't alienate them! Maybe they have something ground breaking to say albeit written in rhyming slang with no grammar!

[Huguenot]

The 'let me fix that for you' (and variations) is a regular joke across the Internet, it's ironic (because it hasn't 'fixed it' it's changed it) - I'm sorry you haven't come across it before.

Imagine Del Boy saying it, and you'll get the tone.

One of the first tips on Internet forums is to remember that the written word doesn't have any tone in it, so it's very easy to read negative intent that don't really exist

I have no idea about your level of education, and since nobody else brought it up it may be that you're assuming a criticism when it doesn't exist.

You weren't part of the discussion in the thread here, so it seems that you were bearing a grudge and looking to insult someone. That doesn't really seem much better than what you're accusing others of? It's basically trolling.

I don't think you necessarily have to 'toughen up' in the face of abuse or bullying - more to ask if there was any abuse or bullying in the first place.

Disagreeing with you is neither abuse nor bullying.

Either way, are you a Chavez revolutionary supporter?