Denmark Hill station: Beyond a joke

[Earl Aelfheah]

It is not efficient to take a natural monopoly, pour in public money and allow some of that to then be paid out to shareholders. 2+2 does of course equal 4, but in privatisation, your taking 2+2-1 and trying top get to 4. As we have seen, it deosn't work.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I strongly believe in the power of markets, competition and incentives, but it totally dogmatic to think that it is appropriate in all and every case to bring in the private sector. To say that there is only one way is the definition of dogma.

[????]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ???? Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > How nationalisisng and freezing fares will

> solve

> > overcrowded over stretched services without a

> > massive investment from THE TAXPAYER is beyond

> my

> > logic - can someone explain how 2+2=5

> >

> > It's dogma - don't believe it.

>

> But some of us want massive investment from the

> taxpayer, funded by some tax rises for those who

> can well afford it and closing of all offshore

> loopholes. Sensibly managed infrastructure

> investment will increase employment, tax revenues

> and reduce spending on benefits. And if there's

> one bit of infrastructure that needs investment,

> it's the railways.

>

> ETA: And, as many economists have pointed out, at

> a time of historic low interest rates which we may

> not see again in decades if ever, what better time

> for a programme of borrowing for infrastructure

> investment?

I have less problem with the investment in infrastructure, especially when money is cheap (see also cross rail) but that's not much to do with the service operators

[????]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I strongly believe in the power of markets,

> competition and incentives, but it totally

> dogmatic to think that it is appropriate in all

> and every case to bring in the private sector. To

> say that there is only one way is the definition

> of dogma.

Private sector created it in the first place. It's not a free market - operators have restrictions on charges etc for eg. Bidding for franchises for a local monopoly is a form of competition? Anyway interesting thread on Guardian Online on this I noticed this evening

[Henry_17]

Rendel,

Not that I think infrastructure investment at the moment is a poor idea, but it's specious of these economists you reference to point to current low rates in isolation and claim the debt funding will be low cost. The government doesn't get a fixed rate mortgage, rather it has to pay a yield on new issuance to rollover the current enourmous stock of debt. So the costs of long term debt will be passed on to future taxpayers when rates rise. Even the yield on debt traded in the secondary market (which doesn't directly impact the governments interest expense on the debt in question) gets charged to corporates including banks via their cost of capital. That means it also gets charged to you and I, and all else equal more debt means a higher cost of debt in terms of the both rate and obviously the bill.

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ???? Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > How nationalisisng and freezing fares will

> solve

> > overcrowded over stretched services without a

> > massive investment from THE TAXPAYER is beyond

> my

> > logic - can someone explain how 2+2=5

> >

> > It's dogma - don't believe it.

>

> But some of us want massive investment from the

> taxpayer, funded by some tax rises for those who

> can well afford it and closing of all offshore

> loopholes. Sensibly managed infrastructure

> investment will increase employment, tax revenues

> and reduce spending on benefits. And if there's

> one bit of infrastructure that needs investment,

> it's the railways.

>

> ETA: And, as many economists have pointed out, at

> a time of historic low interest rates which we may

> not see again in decades if ever, what better time

> for a programme of borrowing for infrastructure

> investment?

[rendelharris]

There are some pretty good fixed rate deals for the government available at the moment Henry: according to The Daily Politics they can currently borrow at 1.08% for ten years and at less than 2% for thirty.

[????]

Back on taxpayer funding - I'm not sure that taxpayers should fund Middleclass commuters from the Home Counties (see also Tax Payer Funded Higher Education as another form of 'regressive' funding).

[Earl Aelfheah]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Back on taxpayer funding - I'm not sure that

> taxpayers should fund Middleclass commuters from

> the Home Counties (see also Tax Payer Funded

> Higher Education as another form of 'regressive'

> funding).

If you start down this route of reasoning, you quickly get to the 'I shouldn't pay for X, I don't use it' argument. in the end it leads to everyone just paying for the things they need, i.e. it undermines the whole idea of universal, public services. Start means testing everything and you undermine support for the system, services suffer and the less affluent end up being a lot worse off.

[rendelharris]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Back on taxpayer funding - I'm not sure that

> taxpayers should fund Middleclass commuters from

> the Home Counties (see also Tax Payer Funded

> Higher Education as another form of 'regressive'

> funding).

Do working class Londoners not use the trains then?

[????]

Yup - the trains from the South East of England and all points there in are packed with the sweaty toilers of the proletariat during rush hour. You really, really think that most trains aren't massively skewed towards those in middle class occupations???

[Louisa]

Quids class trolling again I see 😊

Louisa.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Louisa! You're back in the General Ed Issues section?

[Zebedee Tring]

Here we go again. There is no ED thread complete without a bit of class war. Denmark Hill Station is a problem, whether you're working class, lower middle class, upper middle class or upper class.

[Administrator]

Zebedee Tring Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Here we go again. There is no ED thread complete without a bit of class war.

Untrue - evidence http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?28,1711623

Yes, Louisa is back in the ED Issues section as long as she doesn't start dragging class into things, which someone else has done.

Please stay on topic

[Jeremy]

Administrator Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Untrue - evidence

> http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?2 8,1711623

But there's an undercurrent... some members of society painstakingly choosing from colour swatches, then trialling sampler pots, and finally hiring a decorator to paint their house while they're away in Tuscany.

While other members are just desperate for paint, any paint (as long as it's not red).

[Louisa]

Does Denmark hill station still have a pub attached to it, and if so, what brand is it?

Louisa.

[Jeremy]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Does Denmark hill station still have a pub

> attached to it, and if so, what brand is it?

Yes - Mitchells & Butlers

[Henry_17]

Rendel,

The daily politics has amongst the least clues on this matter of anyone who chooses to comment on it. This is the same organisation who for decades on a week-daily basis have slavishly quoted the index level of the FTSE and the change on the day in index points as though that were meaningful information. Imagine doing something utterly useless for decades and never questioning why you are doing it. I would not be informed by an organisation suffering from such an illness.

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There are some pretty good fixed rate deals for

> the government available at the moment Henry:

> according to The Daily Politics they can currently

> borrow at 1.08% for ten years and at less than 2%

> for thirty.

[Chris82]

Bic Basher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Southeastern no longer manage DH, the current

> operator in charge is Thameslink/GTR. They manage

> all stations on the Catford Loop with the

> exception of Peckham Rye (Southern).

I know, I didn't say Southeastern did. I think stations are generally managed by the operator running the most services, though it can become a bit arbitrary when there are several operators with a similar number as at Denmark Hill. However, if Southeastern is devolved to TfL then they will be responsible for a majority of the services there and I would expect them to ultimately take on management of the station.

[rendelharris]

Henry_17 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Rendel,

> The daily politics has amongst the least clues on

> this matter of anyone who chooses to comment on

> it. This is the same organisation who for decades

> on a week-daily basis have slavishly quoted the

> index level of the FTSE and the change on the day

> in index points as though that were meaningful

> information. Imagine doing something utterly

> useless for decades and never questioning why you

> are doing it. I would not be informed by an

> organisation suffering from such an illness.

Would you believe the Financial Times then, Henry?

"The UK?s benchmark government borrowing rate touched a historic low of 1.396 per cent on Thursday morning, as the ripple effects of central bank action in the face of low inflation spread worldwide.

"Tumbling oil and food prices in the UK and indications from the Bank of England that it had no plans to raise interest rates in the near future have weighed heavily on the country?s 10-year borrowing costs in recent months.

"As a result, the yield on UK 10-year gilts fell 5.5 basis points on Thursday morning to the lowest rate in UK history. Longer term 30-year gilt yields, considered particularly reflective of the country?s inflation prospects, also dropped to a record low of 2.102 per cent."

[Earl Aelfheah]

Welcome back Lou!

[Henry_17]

Remodel,

Good job they gave us that fourth significant figure. Do you believe the BoE sets the price of gilts with their monthly rate decision?

[rendelharris]

Henry_17 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Remodel,

> Good job they gave us that fourth significant

> figure. Do you believe the BoE sets the price of

> gilts with their monthly rate decision?

Remodel? I think people generally agree I'd be best off remodeled but...

Don't those figures indicate, contrary to what you said previously, that UKGOV can borrow at a fixed rate of just over 2% for thirty years?