Loud noise from a flat

[Harmlessmischief]

Hi, I live in a flat in East Dulwich in a converted house with a family of four underneath me. The kids are under 6 years and the noise is becoming overwhelming as the kids get older. I have been woken up most nights by screaming for the last five years and the family awake around 7am and make loads of noise screaching and shouting. I have tried moving my rooms around to not be above them at key times and I also wear ear plugs/noise cancellation headphones in the flat. I had a flatmate who moved out because the noise was so awful. I have proposed sound proofing but the family just ignore me when I raise the issue and I am not in a position to sell. I assume other people have to deal with noise levels from families in small flats and wondered what can be done. I realise that children make noise but they are not my kids and I don't want to be woken or disrupted by them. Any advice welcomed.

[Jules-and-Boo]

that's really selfish of them.

I would put loud music on at inappropriate times and that should prompt a healthy enlightenment on their behalf which would ideally lead to healthy discussions and a bit of improvement in their behaviour.

[Harmlessmischief]

Its interesting that you suggest loud music. I rarely invite friends around to my flat but I had a someone around before Christmas and we were playing some music in my living room. The man in the flat below pounded on my door around 11.30pm and demanded I turn off my music. My friend couldn't believe how he behaved to us playing about some music on a weekend nite...

[tasha1]

Problem is there is simply no soundproofing in victorian conversions. I'm on the ground floor and the hear everything from my upstairs neighbours. They are adults but 4 of them. They are incredible considerate but I hear their TV, conversations etc. There doesn't have to be that much noise for it to be a disturbance, especially when you've become finely tuned to it. My kids have all grown up now but it is quite hard to keep little ones quiet, especially in the mornings. Years ago, I lived in another victorian conversion with the same soundproofing issues.The upstairs neighbours had a small child who ran into his parent's bedroom (above my room) at 5am every morning and the squealing, charging around commenced. We reached a compromise, that they would do their best to keep things quite until 7am and this was a struggle for them but they really tried their best. I think 7am for young children is reasonable for them to make some noise. With my own children, I would quieten them but they forget within a few minutes at that age. I do understand your difficulty and annoyance but I think its part of living in built up areas.

[rachp]

I find that night time noise is possible to block out with the right ear plugs, wax ones are more effective than the sponge ones. It won?t solve all your problems but it will mean you get a good night?s sleep at least. I know you said you?ve tried ear plugs already but they do vary so worth experimenting if you haven?t already done so. I can barely hear my own children in the same house when I?m wearing them!

[kristymac1]

we installed a dropped ceiling in a victorian conversion and filled with sound proofing insulation - it helped a bit until the upstairs flat stripped out all their carpets to bare wooden floorboards. We eventually moved when it seriously started affected our mental health.

Would it be possible to sound proof under your floorboards?

[Harmlessmischief]

Hi Kirsty Mac, as far as I know there is some sound proofing under floorboards. I dont have much money and the couple are not nice neighbours so I know they wont share the costs. Any additional sound proofing would be at my expense and the kids are not my responsibility, so I don't feel that I should pay more & have the inconvenience.

[goldilocks]

I think that the advice above about trying different earplugs is good, if you can get a decent nights sleep then that should help.

the thing to remember is that whilst the kids are small, it sounds like they're no longer babies and toddlers so will become much less noisy over the coming years - they'll hopefully wake less early and as they get older they play in different ways, so hopefully you'll notice an improvement reasonably quickly.

[Castleton]

What's the freehold/leasehold situation, is there a management company?

armlessmischief Wrote:

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> Hi, I live in a flat in East Dulwich in a

> converted house with a family of four underneath

> me. The kids are under 6 years and the noise is

> becoming overwhelming as the kids get older. I

> have been woken up most nights by screaming for

> the last five years and the family awake around

> 7am and make loads of noise screaching and

> shouting. I have tried moving my rooms around to

> not be above them at key times and I also wear ear

> plugs/noise cancellation headphones in the flat. I

> had a flatmate who moved out because the noise was

> so awful. I have proposed sound proofing but the

> family just ignore me when I raise the issue and I

> am not in a position to sell. I assume other

> people have to deal with noise levels from

> families in small flats and wondered what can be

> done. I realise that children make noise but they

> are not my kids and I don't want to be woken or

> disrupted by them. Any advice welcomed.

[Eggles]

This is a horrid situation for you and one lots of people have been experiencing over lockdown. You have 3 choices:

1) Treat the source: continue to try to build neighbour relations so that their behaviour changes. It sounds like you have your opinions of them already which is understandable, but they are a family with young children who have most likely been bouncing off the walls same as everyone else during all the fluffery of the last 2 years. Not being disrupted by your neighbours when you live in a victorian conversion is, as I have experienced as well, not an option! If you can demonstrate that you understand and empathise with their situation, maybe they will act likewise.

2) Treat the path of the noise (improving the sound insulation): You say you are not currently in a financial position to do this but there are options which might take the edge off if you ever are. Even then, if you are only able to treat the floor-side of your floor (i.e. not the ceiling below) then you will probably only make the situation a bit better but probably won't fully remedy the situation. Noise will also be travelling up the walls, old chimneys and lots of other paths. They are unlikely ever to share the cost with you.

3) Treat the receiver: Yes, ear plugs. Yes, white noise machine. Unfortunately once you have tuned into it you are unlikely to be able to tap into the reserves of tolerance or empathy that you might be able to conjure up in other areas of your life. This is your home, and it feels like it is under siege. Without one of the above options being viable I think the best you can hope for is that the enemy at the gate gets tired or ages and goes away...

Best of luck!

[Harmlessmischief]

Hi Castleton, We are joint freeholders. The lease says I should be able to enjoy my flat in peace but this has not been the case for last five years. I had hoped the couple would move but it looks like they are going to live in the flat long term until kids are teenagers. I live alone and they treat me like I have no rights. I have tried getting a solicitor to send a friendly letter reminding them of the lease but they don?t seem to follow the lease.

[Castleton]

I think you are bending over backwards and it's time to end the friendly! Get some proper advice, keep a diary from right now, and explore action possibilities.

They obviously think numbers mean strength, they are wrong.

[goldilocks]

Or they're just living in their flat? They're a family with two small kids, it sounds likely that they're making normal amounts of noise- they're not having huge parties all night every night but babies and toddlers cry at night sometimes, some more than others, as they get older they make more noise too. The quiet enjoyment thing does also cut both ways - it doesn't entitle people to 'quiet' so much as mean that they shouldn't be continually disturbed in their lives.

Once something starts to annoy you though it is many times worse than it would be otherwise. Honestly, buying a Victorian conversion and not expecting any noise is unreasonable. That said, having kids shrieking every morning before say 7am is also unreasonable so its about finding a balance. Perhaps they too can't afford additional soundproofing?

Once they get older they'll be plugged into screens.

[IlonaM]

Have you thought about mediation? It might be a way to step back from the brink and find a middle path: https://www.calmmediation.org/smc/

[Harmlessmischief]

Hey Goldilocks-I do agree that kids make noise and living in conversion flats can be noisy. I cant help thinking tho that if I had kids I would buy a house in a cheaper area, so the children had space to grow. The kids below me clearly dont have enough room and make noise because they are living in a cramped flat. I realise that not everyone can afford a house in East Dulwich but surrounding areas like Brockley and Honor Oak are cheaper for houses. On my street in the last few years, there seems to be an influx of couples who are squeezing kids into small flats and I struggle to understand what is the big attraction to East Dulwich. Is it because schools are better? Sorry if this is any way controversial but i have been wondering about this for a while.

I have proposed mediation but not sure the couple are willing to pay for someone.

[Castleton]

I understand the point being made here, but I'd have a tad more sympathy for BOTH parties if there hadn't been an unreasonable complaint about the OP playing music (once!)

goldilocks Wrote:

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> Or they're just living in their flat? They're a

> family with two small kids, it sounds likely that

> they're making normal amounts of noise- they're

> not having huge parties all night every night but

> babies and toddlers cry at night sometimes, some

> more than others, as they get older they make more

> noise too. The quiet enjoyment thing does also cut

> both ways - it doesn't entitle people to 'quiet'

> so much as mean that they shouldn't be continually

> disturbed in their lives.

>

> Once something starts to annoy you though it is

> many times worse than it would be otherwise.

> Honestly, buying a Victorian conversion and not

> expecting any noise is unreasonable. That said,

> having kids shrieking every morning before say 7am

> is also unreasonable so its about finding a

> balance. Perhaps they too can't afford additional

> soundproofing?

>

> Once they get older they'll be plugged into

> screens.

[goldilocks]

It sounds like communications have broken down, but also if you are continually on the receiving end of complaints about noise that you really can't stop happening, it might be hard to deal with.

The recommendation to keep a noise diary is a good one - what the noise was, how long it went on for, what time it was etc but then perhaps view this as objectively as possible to determine whether it really is noise that goes beyond normal living in a property.

You say, you hoped they'd move - perhaps they do too, but housing is expensive, the jump from a flat to a house is enormous and honestly you can't buy a house for the same price as a flat in any of the areas you mentioned. Maybe they will move away, but unfortunately you can't control that. Victorian conversions aren't great for soundproofing - I'd imagine that when you walk around they hear you, probably your television or whatever other noise you make as well.

Ultimately, living in flats comes with some degree of neighbour noise - as does frankly living in a house. Obviously most of us try to consider neighbours and get along as well as possible though. When it becomes something that bothers you it is horrible and can become consuming, but I don't think that you can ask a family not to make noise at 7am etc.

[kissthisguy]

I'm really sorry to hear about your situation. It sounds very stressful, especially given the prospect of little negotiation with your neighbours. No one wants to live their life wearing earplugs but sleep is so important that perhaps that plus a white noise generator (there are phone apps for this) might help.

[Bing]

Hello. As a family of four who live in a flat in a Victorian conversion and can't afford to move to a house, its REALLY hard to keep small children quiet. We are constantly telling ours to not run, not jump, not shout. They just don't understand!. We are very aware of the noise for our neighbours and we do try. We got under carpet soundproofing in some of our rooms and try to be quiet in the mornings. On the plus side, the kids are very quiet in the evenings. I don't know what the solution is. Just sharing an experience from a different pov.

[Harmlessmischief]

Hi Bing, thanks but my neighbours won?t put in soundproofing. They just expect me to have sleepless nights.