depressing education article

[blinder999]

Class war anyone?

http://education.guardian.co.uk/publicschools/story/0,,2279015,00.html

[citizenED]

Interesting to note that he is not statesman-sounding "Alexander" Johnson, but instead sticks with the more "fun" Boris. Pfeffel is pronounced piffel, which is just about right.

[snorky]

Its hardly a surprise that this is effectively a closed shop

I dont care one way or another about someone chouice to send their kid to private school, but when just by attending that establishement , they get a head start in life, then it gets a bit wiffy

burn down dulwich college.now.

[citizenED]

It's one thing sending your kid to a fee-paying school to prevent them rubbing shoulders with the riff-raff and scumdingers. It's a totally different thing to send them to a top public school so that they meet the sons and daughters of the ruling classes.

[blinder999]

citizenED Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's one thing sending your kid to a fee-paying

> school to prevent them rubbing shoulders with the

> riff-raff and scumdingers. It's a totally

> different thing to send them to a top public

> school so that they meet the sons and daughters of

> the ruling classes.

what about sending them there to practically guarantee them a place at Oxbridge (providing they aren't irredeemably thick)? Is that acceptable?

[david_carnell]

citizenED Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's one thing sending your kid to a fee-paying

> school to prevent them rubbing shoulders with the

> riff-raff and scumdingers. It's a totally

> different thing to send them to a top public

> school so that they meet the sons and daughters of

> the ruling classes.

Is it not just slightly further on the same scale?

[Brendan]

Have you guys heard of these fellows called the Bolsheviks?

[snorky]

tell me more...

[david_carnell]

Come on Brendan, that's a bit OTT. Opposing the ongoing educational privileges of the money-ed class in favour of extra investment in state education for all and forming the solid basis of a meritocracy is hardly the same as supporting Lenin now is it?

[Brendan]

I assume by OTT you mean, October Tsarist vs Trotsky.

So can I not interest you in a copy of Socialist Worker then?

[david_carnell]

Very good. You can remove tongue from cheek now.

[Brendan]

Never!

[Brendan]

Anyway I look good in red.

[citizenED]

I was just saying that I know some people who send their little ones to fee paying schools because they are worried about them falling in with the wrong crowd if they went to the local comp. Right or wrong I think that is different from Cameron and his ilk being sent to Eton.

Of course in education, like in many things our society have got things arse over tit. The people who need to be sent to the best public schools are the educationally challenged from the sink estates. Society should say to these children, OK so you got dealt a bum hand in life, crappy homelife, living on a shitty estate, terrible social problems, so here you go laddie, we'll give you a decent education.

[david_carnell]

I know you're speaking from a knowledgable position CitizenED so I won't argue beyond my reach.

Of course Eton/Marlborough/Rugby etc are very different from minor public schools that exist all over the country; for a start I would imagine the fees are disproportionate.

And indeed you are correct when asserting that those from the margins of sopciety are those in most dire need of a decent education with low class sizes, excellent facilities, top teachers etc etc when in reality they are likely to get the worst of all of those.

It is a vicious circle of course. Bad school attracts only those teachers who can't get jobs elsewhere and so gets worse. Is unable to attract those children of parents who give a damn to try and improve things and so it goes round and round.

But the fact that fee-paying schools still attract a tax-free charitable status does stick in the throat rather.

Of course, I offer no answers. :(

[macker]

citizenED Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The people

> who need to be sent to the best public schools are

> the educationally challenged from the sink

> estates. Society should say to these children, OK

> so you got dealt a bum hand in life, crappy

> homelife, living on a shitty estate, terrible

> social problems, so here you go laddie, we'll give

> you a decent education.

We could call it, oh, I don't know ... the "assisted places scheme", perhaps.

[david_carnell]

macker Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> We could call it, oh, I don't know ... the

> "assisted places scheme", perhaps.

Mmm, we could. Or we could use the money to benefit the many and not the few by lowering class sizes in state primary schools. Oh, look, we did already.

And the British Journal of Education found that only 7% of those on the assisted places schemes came from working class backgrounds. The majority came from middle-class single parent families whose parents had, in many cases, been to independent school themselves.

[macker]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But the fact that fee-paying schools still attract

> a tax-free charitable status does stick in the

> throat rather.

Perhaps they'd give up the tax status in return for education money following the child, whichever school he/she happens to be in. Of course that might cause some of the state (some LEAs perhaps) to wither away.

(Ducks and waits for the howls)

> Of course, I offer no answers. :(

Did that every stop a revolutionary?

[blinder999]

macker Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> david_carnell Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > But the fact that fee-paying schools still

> attract

> > a tax-free charitable status does stick in the

> > throat rather.

>

> Perhaps they'd give up the tax status in return

> for education money following the child, whichever

> school he/she happens to be in. Of course that

> might cause some of the state (some LEAs perhaps)

> to wither away.

I wonder if the Tories will bring this idea up again when they win the election.

[david_carnell]

macker Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Perhaps they'd give up the tax status in return

> for education money following the child, whichever

> school he/she happens to be in. Of course that

> might cause some of the state (some LEAs perhaps)

> to wither away.

>

> (Ducks and waits for the howls)

Or perhaps if they were genuinely charitable in nature I'd have less of a problem.

I'll ignore the thinly veiled personal jibe. I'm far from revolutionary. Unless fairness,equality of opportunity and a meritocratic society have suddenly become shockingly rebellious opinions to hold.

[Brendan]

It is telling that there are plenty of people who went to private schools or send their kids to them who are of the opinion that the system is intrinsically unfair and would like to see an even playing field for all. But you will be hard pressed to find someone from/in a state school who believes that it is fair for the quality of a child?s education to be reliant on the amount of money their parents have.

There are of course also plenty of people who send their kids to state school who get a smug self satisfaction out of ?being better? than those who can?t afford the same as them. This is because for every decent person in this world there is a bastard out there too.

Personally I would completely ban private education but also get rid of the benefit system. So everyone gets an equal start in life but if you stuff t up, well tough.

[James]

Ok, here's my proposal for the British education system.

Scrap all private, selective schools and faith schools. They have no place in a fair, meritocratic education system. Reinstate the eleven plus - compulsory for everyone - but instead of using it to separate by ability, use it to ensure that every school has a comprehensive intake with kids of all abilities. Each child is assigned the nearest possible school to satisfy this criteria. Each school then uses streaming in all subjects from day one to ensure differentiation. Parents are not given a choice of schools. This is the only way to ensure fairness. To ensure consistency and teaching excellence, the lowest and highest abilities receive extra lessons from a team of specialist teachers who travel the entire LEA. Speacialist 'units' within a school can be set up for the brightest and most struggling kids.

Result = no more sink schools. Every school is able to cater for all abilities, so standards should be broadly the same everywhere. No more heartache and huge waste of taxpayers' money on bureaucracy arising from the appeals procedure.

When it boils down to it, parents don't want "choice." They want decent schools for their kids. So why should some get brilliant schools at the expense of others?

[Brendan]

Cut the academic school day by 2 hours and make sport and/or music and arts compulsory.

[blinder999]

James Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Ok, here's my proposal for the British education

> system.

>

> Scrap all private, selective schools and faith

> schools. They have no place in a fair,

> meritocratic education system. Reinstate the

> eleven plus - compulsory for everyone - but

> instead of using it to separate by ability, use it

> to ensure that every school has a comprehensive

> intake with kids of all abilities. Each child is

> assigned the nearest possible school to satisfy

> this criteria. Each school then uses streaming in

> all subjects from day one to ensure

> differentiation. Parents are not given a choice of

> schools. This is the only way to ensure fairness.

> To ensure consistency and teaching excellence, the

> lowest and highest abilities receive extra lessons

> from a team of specialist teachers who travel the

> entire LEA. Speacialist 'units' within a school

> can be set up for the brightest and most

> struggling kids.

>

> Result = no more sink schools. Every school is

> able to cater for all abilities, so standards

> should be broadly the same everywhere. No more

> heartache and huge waste of taxpayers' money on

> bureaucracy arising from the appeals procedure.

>

> When it boils down to it, parents don't want

> "choice." They want decent schools for their kids.

> So why should some get brilliant schools at the

> expense of others?

I like it.

[citizenED]

Pretty much agree, James. Choice in education is a misnomer. Parents can express a preference as to what school their kids go to but they cannot choose what school they go to. One point - SATS do the job of the eleven plus in giving a guide to ability so no need to reinstate the 11+.