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Another anti-drag protest - this Saturday

portioncontrol

By portioncontrol
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HeadNun

HeadNun

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I think the big question is: what is a trans person? Is it someone who genuinely was born into the wrong body, that biology somehow made an error, or is it someone who wishes they had been born a different sex? If it's the latter, they have what's now termed gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is genuinely distressing and evidence shows that a large amount of children with gender dysphoria are autistic and/or suffer from internalised homophobia (ie they think they are gay or lesbian but are too ashamed to confront it and / or have been told by their peers they can identify out of those feelings by changing 'gender'). 

The question then becomes, how is it helpful to young people to have medical treatment and / or to be encouraged in this myth that adopting gender tropes can somehow help them? If a young person was anorexic, would you give them diet pills, or try with therapy to help them accept their bodies? Many young people learn to accept their bodies once they're out of puberty. 

You simply cannot be born in the 'wrong body', you are born into the body you're born into and that is that. 

Many young women who identify as male do so because they are rightly terrified of the hyper-sexualised culture we're living in and the expectations of their male peers, thanks to a diet of hardcore porn, up-skirting, public shaming etc etc. I don't blame them for wanting to somehow identify out of being female. 

This is an ideology which not enough people are questioning because they wrongly see it as stonewall / the fight for gay rights mark 2. Trans people are protected under the equality act, there is nothing in this country historically that they have been prevented from doing. 

But there comes a point where biology comes into play, as do the rights of women and girls. Rosie Duffield has never said she has a problem with trans people, she has said there are issues around men identifying as women being allowed into what should be 'safe' spaces, ie female only. The main rape centre in Edinburgh allows males or trans women and the director, herself a trans woman, has said that women who are uncomfortable with biological males there need to reframe their thinking - how is that going to make a female who's suffered sexual abuse at the hand of a man feel safe and listened to?  These are issues that have to be resolved and it seems the only place to draw a line is with biological sex. A man can simply never know what it feels like to be a woman, no matter how much they identify as one. 

I know quite a few trans people. Two of them are kids - one gay and autistic, the other autistic. In my opinion it's dangerous for their parents to perpetuate a myth that there is actually something 'wrong' with them, and that it can be resolved by identifying out of it. They need to be taught they were born into the right body and learn to love and accept that. 

I also know a middle aged trans woman, who is perfectly nice, but he refuses to use male loos, refuses to use male changing rooms, even though I know a lot of  women don't like it. That looks like male entitlement to me, because there is no empathy at all with the women who feel threatened by his / her presence, his preferences take precedence and I'm afraid to say that that is very male behaviour. 

Why has there been a recent explosion in trans people? Is it that there has always been this many and they just didn't realise, or it went undiagnosed? I suspect not - the only reason can be social contagion. If it's not a medical condition, which it cannot possibly be, then it must be in the mind. 

 

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Alec1

Alec1

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41 minutes ago, HeadNun said:

I also know a middle aged trans woman, who is perfectly nice, but he refuses to use male loos, refuses to use male changing rooms, even though I know a lot of  women don't like it. That looks like male entitlement to me, because there is no empathy at all with the women who feel threatened by his / her presence, his preferences take precedence and I'm afraid to say that that is very male behaviour. 

Why has there been a recent explosion in trans people? Is it that there has always been this many and they just didn't realise, or it went undiagnosed? I suspect not - the only reason can be social contagion. If it's not a medical condition, which it cannot possibly be, then it must be in the mind. 

 

You have just talked about a trans woman you know - I am guessing SHE identifies as female.  Therefore, you should be referring to her appropriately, not misgendering her.  Why should she use male toilets or male changing rooms?  She isn't male.  Which toilets and changing rooms would you be expecting trans men to use?   Think about it carefully.  

 

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HeadNun

HeadNun

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36 minutes ago, Alec1 said:

You have just talked about a trans woman you know - I am guessing SHE identifies as female.  Therefore, you should be referring to her appropriately, not misgendering her.  Why should she use male toilets or male changing rooms?  She isn't male.  Which toilets and changing rooms would you be expecting trans men to use?   Think about it carefully.  

 

Yes I should have said ‘she’ I normally do refer to her as she / her, I just wasn’t concentrating. I usually always use people’s preferred pronouns, this occasion was an oversight.
 

It’s a very simple answer: there should be separate facilities for trans people, and separate sports categories too. Unfortunately that won’t solve the problem. 
 

And I’m afraid to say that the person in question is male - she was born male and has a penis. We can’t identify our way out of science, nor can we change science with semantics 

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HeadNun

HeadNun

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It’s interesting that, of everything I wrote, neither Alec nor Bic Basher challenged or discussed any part of it, other than to call me phobic and pick me up on accidentally misgendering someone.
 

Perhaps that’s because I have a point? Why is it that the people who are supposedly advocating for trans people never seem able to have a conversation about the finer details, but only seem able to get angry and abusive? How does that help trans people? 

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Alec1

Alec1

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20 minutes ago, HeadNun said:

It’s interesting that, of everything I wrote, neither Alec nor Bic Basher challenged or discussed any part of it, other than to call me phobic and pick me up on accidentally misgendering someone.
 

Perhaps that’s because I have a point? Why is it that the people who are supposedly advocating for trans people never seem able to have a conversation about the finer details, but only seem able to get angry and abusive? How does that help trans people? 

Perhaps that's because we can't be bothered?  Like the saying....don't feed the trolls.

However, basic respect for another human being should ALWAYS be challenged. 
 

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HeadNun

HeadNun

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4 minutes ago, Alec1 said:

Perhaps that's because we can't be bothered?  Like the saying....don't feed the trolls.

However, basic respect for another human being should ALWAYS be challenged. 
 

I challenge anyone to show me what I’ve written that is trolling. And is it not also disrespectful not to engage with other people’s views? 
 

Your answer sadly underlines the whole problem with this debate - that only one side is willing or able to have a calm discussion about it. That’s why I fear we’ll never make progress. 
 

It’s interesting that you have no views on gender dysphoria in children, their welfare, and the safeguarding of women and girls. 

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Cazzlesuk

Cazzlesuk

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I think the issue with this subject and many others where ‘rights’ are concerned is that we as humans aren’t very good at seeing the other side and waste energy focusing on our differences rather than our similarities. If we all band together and say ‘humans have a right to live with dignity and respect regardless of sex or gender identity’ and all that comes with that (safe spaces etc) as a basic premise then maybe we may come up with a solution. Toilets are simple - make them all unisex, fully enclosed cubicles (like the toilets at home) with either an open area visible to all to wash hands or put the sink in the cubicle. Lots of restaurants in london are already doing this and no-one is up in arms and as a woman it feels safe and secure and wonderful. Surely changing rooms the same can be achieved with fully enclosed cubicles with an open and visible external area - imagine how much nicer this would be for everyone - no massive queue for the ladies, the gents won’t be a cesspit of humanity (said with love). Sport is a trickier area, so are rape centres and prisons to truly balance rights but if we start with the premise I mentioned we must be able to solve it for everyone by balancing each groups needs and with an understanding that we are all on the same side - I don’t believe there isn’t enough money to achieve it - we are merely being encouraged to argue with each other as a distraction from the corruption and greed of the govt. I agree with some of your points HeadNun around the difficulties of achieving this in what on the face of it sometimes appears to be conflicting rights - there are bigots on both sides of course and so our default position must be to achieve equal rights for all. I’m happy to say trans women are women, use your preferred pronouns etc (although my personal preference would be that we all use they - it’s simpler and avoids offence where unintended like HeadNun above). I may not understand it fully, but I don’t have to, to respect your right to exist as you wish/feel without fear for your safety. The same applies to cis women, and trans and cis men of course. This also applies to any other perceived differences - race for example. Once you remove the characteristic from the discussion, it is hard to argue with the premise regardless of the issue you substitute - if you deserve/ have a right to it, then so do others.  If we banded together a bit more - the govt may have to do it’s job and provide safe spaces for all and make sure all of our outcomes are the same - true equality. And it would then be interesting to see if we do see so many people with gender dysphoria to your point HeadNun if we ever do get to that point as then how does it really matter if we all get to experience life our own way without feare. One thing I would say that is important to me as a woman is to report crime and outcomes in life (pay gaps as one example) on the basis of sex - until we achieve this utopia it is very important - for both trans and cis - although recognising we would need to record trans women/men categories to make sure your outcomes are equal also - we can’t measure progress without doing this - I came to this conclusion after reading ‘invisible women’ by  Caroline Criado Perez - very fascinating if a little depressing read if anyone is interested on the ways that being female impacts your life in ways you didn’t before realise.

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Cazzlesuk

Cazzlesuk

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What I’m saying Alexander2022 is that we don’t have to agree on each others position to champion the idea that every single person deserves equal rights and no-one deserves to be attacked or feel fearful for their safety, in toilets or anywhere else. I really do hope I am woke, but that’s just my opinion. You’re entitled to your own, as long as it doesn’t impinge on anyone’s rights to live safely and equally. You are perfectly entitled to believe what you believe also.

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HeadNun

HeadNun

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Hey Cazzlesuk, 

I completely agree about the loos - the self-contained cubicles with sinks work well for everyone and don't compromise women's safety (I hope). However in schools I think it's important for girls and young women to have a safe place they can commune, so I believe loos there should stay single sex, with separate provisions for trans kids (though I know that some trans people might be unhappy about this). 

When it comes to sport, there can be no question that people born male have and retain a physical advantage, which can only in part be mitigated by hormones. 

As for reporting crime stats and pay issues, I agree that that absolutely has to be categorised the sex someone was born. Otherwise, women's rights and protections will go backwards even further. 

But I do worry that, even if we come up with solutions to all these problems, eg separate spaces, wards categories, prison wings etc, that trans lobbyists will still insist that it's transphobic not to admit trans women into the same spaces that are used by women. A classic example is the backlash over JK Rowling's refuge, which is exclusively for natal women.

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HeadNun

HeadNun

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1 hour ago, Bic Basher said:

Can you two continue this crap over on Mumsnet.  It's more in tune with your transphobic viewpoint than on a local forum you're once again trying to overtake with hateful nonsense.

Bic Basher, obviously there’s a conflict of views here. If you want it to be solved, how do you suggest that happens? If discourse isn’t the way, what is?

 

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Cazzlesuk

Cazzlesuk

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1 hour ago, Bic Basher said:

Can you two continue this crap over on Mumsnet.  It's more in tune with your transphobic viewpoint than on a local forum you're once again trying to overtake with hateful nonsense.

We might be able to have a more sensible discussion. Others on this thread I would agree with you are hateful, but I really don’t know where I’ve been hateful. And why you feel you have the right to express your opinion and not others - maybe look up the definition of transphobe and then come back and point out which of my comments were. Or why not share your solution. I don’t think it’s turning up at every pub in southeast london, but again, just my

opinion. Thank God we have people like you to condescendingly ‘explain’ to us where we are going wrong 

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Alec1

Alec1

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11 hours ago, HeadNun said:

I challenge anyone to show me what I’ve written that is trolling. And is it not also disrespectful not to engage with other people’s views? 
 

Your answer sadly underlines the whole problem with this debate - that only one side is willing or able to have a calm discussion about it. That’s why I fear we’ll never make progress. 
 

It’s interesting that you have no views on gender dysphoria in children, their welfare, and the safeguarding of women and girls. 

This isn't debate.  Nor should trans people be debated.  Why would I want to share any views I have on here?  It's very clear, that any views which don't align with yours and Alexander2022, are not of value.  

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Scooter man

Scooter man

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Cant fathom how this is even a discussion have we come so far from reality that this is even considered suitable for children.

Please look on Youtube for examples of these performances if you have the stomach for it.

 

Autogynephilia is defined as a male's propensity to be sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female. It is the paraphilia that is theorized to underlie transvestism and some forms of male-to-female (MtF) transsexualism. Autogynephilia encompasses sexual arousal with cross-dressing and cross-gender expression that does not involve women's clothing per se. The concept of autogynephilia defines a typology of MtF transsexualism and offers a theory of motivation for one type of MtF transsexualism. Autogynephilia resembles a sexual orientation in that it involves elements of idealization and attachment as well as erotic desire. Nearly 3% of men in Western countries may experience autogynephilia; its most severe manifestation, MtF transsexualism, is rare but increasing in prevalence. Some theorists and clinicians reject the transsexual typology and theory of motivation derived from autogynephilia; their objections suggest a need for additional research. The concept of autogynephilia can assist clinicians in understanding some otherwise puzzling manifestations of nonhomosexual MtF transsexualism. Autogynephilia exemplifies an unusual paraphilic category called 'erotic target identity inversions', in which men desire to impersonate or turn their bodies into facsimiles of the persons or things to which they are sexually attracted.

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Cazzlesuk

Cazzlesuk

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5 hours ago, Alec1 said:

This isn't debate.  Nor should trans people be debated.  Why would I want to share any views I have on here?  It's very clear, that any views which don't align with yours and Alexander2022, are not of value.  

I agree with you up to a point - human rights and people should not be debated. Their rights and personal identity are as absolutely inherently theirs as anyone else’s and aren’t up for dispute. HeadNun as far as I can tell from her posts is engaging respectfully on a matter that affects HER life also, and so is essential to the conversation in a way that you don’t appear to be - or have any interest in contributing positively to. So you can pretend to have a higher understanding of the issues facing trans women than her but that is misguided and what she very accurately described as ‘male behaviour’ - this isn’t our first time seeing this or hearing trans stories in our lives, it is also our lived experience - not that anyone has ever given a hoot about it until now. Not that I agree with everything she says and like anyone (dare I say it even you) may have blind spots where she hasn’t fully figured it out yet (has anyone - including me). I also recognise that some on this thread are not posting in what appears to be a helpful or genuine way, every group has them and we should be calling them out as we find them (Alexander2022 - looking at you). But It is generally men attacking these women. So there really shouldn’t be any ‘debate’ that needs us to help solve your issues - call your Dad/son/brother/friends and engage in the conversation to shift the attitudes that leads to attacks on women and then watch us fling off the confines of gender pretty quickly - but then you won’t have these conversations with men will you - you’ll only pop up on here to ‘call out’ women as the issue for what you see as transphobia - when you're accusing women of the bigoted views that men have held towards women unapologetically for centuries, and still continue to trot out now when we dare to have an opinion on anything you think we’re not entitled to (mumsnet anyone?) but you won’t call them out on that will you? No, nothing wrong with a bit of casual misogyny, it’s only bigotry if we’ve changed our pronouns first....we’ll I’m calling you out on your bigoted opinions too -the double standards on display here are breathtaking and it makes no sense in 2023. I’d join you at the pub in SE london and scream slogans at the 5 opposition bigots who turn up  if I thought it would help but I’d be turned on the second I open my mouth no doubt…..or we could call that plan b after you call your Dad/brother/uncle/friend. I’ll go back to my life now - this is such a toxic place to waste any more time - and the culprits are on both sides. 

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