What it is really about?

[heartblock]

 

profit for shareholders?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/21/bae-systems-profit-ukraine-israel-gaza-wars-ftse-100?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[Sephiroth]

Russia invades  Ukraine with clear eyes in other European territories, murders people and you, you start a thread implying all of this just for western profit

 

an absolute disgrace 

[heartblock]

Do you think that that the Ukraine/ Russia conflict will be resolved through more bombs/guns/death or by some diplomatic resolution. I'm sure we all agree that Putin is a dictator and warmonger, that there is no defence and no rationale for invading Ukraine. But where are we now? No end of the conflict and no resolution. 

Meanwhile - big profits for BAE. 

Personal attacks are also not appropriate on this forum, even if you do not agree with someone's opinion or point of view.

My Quaker upbringing believes all violence and war is wrong. In the case of Ukraine, opposing war in such a time does not mean staying neutral, allowing injustice to go unchallenged, or doing nothing. Instead, Friends seek ways to engage and fight injustice without killing another human being. Peace is not only a moral stance; it can also be a practical solution, Avdiivka is ruined and desperate after 2 years of Russian attack and billions spent on weapons- maybe there is another way?

and gas companies - https://www.greenpeace.org/international/publication/59432/who-profits-from-war/

[Sephiroth]

At which point of the Second World War would you have drawn a line and said “that enough bloodshed/profit for whoever.  Let adolf have what he wants”

 

The answer? it’s going to be a combination of superior bombs/guns AND diplomacy.  And diplomacy will only be entertained when Putin is beaten 

 

if their is “another way” perhaps you could use history or maybe your Quaker faith to guide us

I don’t believe I have personally attacked you.  I have taken your publicly  posted position and called it a disgrace 
 

Which it is. Objectively 

 

no one likes the war or the losses or the bloodshed but if you think appeasement will end it then you are naive at best.  But to suggest it’s being sustained to profit western companies is immoral 

 

that doesn’t mean companies won’t profit.  Vaccine companies profited from the pandemic.  But they were necessary as well.  

Edited February 21, 2024 by Sephiroth

[Spartacus]

I half get what hb is implying 

Whilst we can't turn our backs on Ukraine and ensuring they have the capability to defend themselves, is it morally right that multinationals make money out of war ? 

During the 2 World wars, governments mobilised workforces and took over factories build weapons but now there does seem to be an industry making profits. 

Thete has to be a better way to allow countries to defend themselves without paying multinationals! 

 

[Sephiroth]

When has that ever been true tho?

 

Many of the household names we use daily today made fortunes in world war 2

 

we could go back to empires maybe. It’s what Putin is trying to do 

 

I dont care if it’s companies, Tories, corbynites, pixies or leperachauns.   Putin needs defeating and I would take help from any and all to ensure it 

 

but even if I was as suspicious of bae or whoever - just going “that’s enough now” and giving Putin what he wants would be shooting outselves  in the foot and will lead to millions of more deaths and if anyone is happy with that then yeah. I will judge them 
 

 

 

[heartblock]

An interesting article - about a year old. I don't completely agree with all of it, but I think the author has a good grasp of the current situation.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/27/ukraine-war-end-putin-russia-talks

There is also the issue of arms and weaponry meant for Ukraine turning up in Africa and being used by unsavoury  groups. 

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2023-000805_EN.html

Putin is too invested in this war and will not end it, doesn't matter to him how many Russians and Ukrainians die and the west will never directly fight Russia as too afraid of WW3, so Ukraine will slowly be destroyed.

Diplomacy is really the only way out. 

[Sephiroth]

"Diplomacy is really the only way out. "

 

But how does this work in this situation? Who does it involve? What sort of outcome would you want? And why would Putin "diplomatically" agree to it?

 

I know how diplomacy works - but it requires engagement from stakeholders. 

[heartblock]

I'm not sure it's about outcomes I want - if only. My choice would be free, fair and democratic elections in Russia, a free press and it not a dictatorship pretending to be a democracy.

Putin will not stand down and slowly the 'West' will stop providing arms to Ukraine - I think that will be a terrible outcome for Ukranians.

Maybe both sides giving way in some small way will produce a better outcome - I don't think there are any 'good' outcomes, just less 'bad ones' sadly.