Phone thefts in East Dulwich

[Liv05]

Happened to me on Monday night 9.30 pm walking on champion park road from Denmark Hill station, was on the way home. Same thing. young guy on a bike came up behind me and yanked my phone out of my hand. I screamed too but unfortunately he was off and phone is gone. Could still see it on the map about 10 mins walk from East Dulwich station, reported to police who essentially called me the next day to say nothing will be done. Just keep your phones close by and be aware of your surroundings folks, definitely people in the area are being targeted. Few passer bys saw it happens and nobody asked if I was ok which was fairly upsetting on top of it!

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

That's awful, I'm sorry to hear that.

[Happyme5]

So sorry Hun. It is a really scary experience.  This is a real.crime and the police should be doing something about it. How dare they not bother.  It isn't good enough.  Maybe get on to whoever might drop some weight MP.  Is there a minister responsible for.crime in the commons.   Someone is going to get hurt and that shouldn't have to be what happens B4 anything is done.  I can imagine the police would be quick enough to arrest a victim of they were able to catch the spineless so n so. x. 

[Rockets]

Liv so sorry to hear that - unfortunately there is so much of this type of crime the police can't/don't bother with it. Our son's friends' stolen phone was showing as being in a house on Barry Road but the police were not interested.

 

The stats on how much of a problem this is are really scary - not only in Dulwich but across London as a whole - 28% increase in London in 12 months and some 51,000 phones stolen - that's 150 a day and nobody seems to know what the solution to fix it is! The phone manufacturing industry isn't likely to embrace any measures that mean they can no longer make money from the lucrative trade-in/global re-sale market.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67125411

[Guest]

Liv - sorry to hear this happened to you, really horrible. Take care. 

[SpringTime]

5 hours ago, Rockets said:

Liv so sorry to hear that - unfortunately there is so much of this type of crime the police can't/don't bother with it. Our son's friends' stolen phone was showing as being in a house on Barry Road but the police were not interested.

 

The stats on how much of a problem this is are really scary - not only in Dulwich but across London as a whole - 28% increase in London in 12 months and some 51,000 phones stolen - that's 150 a day and nobody seems to know what the solution to fix it is! The phone manufacturing industry isn't likely to embrace any measures that mean they can no longer make money from the lucrative trade-in/global re-sale market.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67125411

A step in the right direction would be to prevent children falling into the hands of gangs:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68615776

[malumbu]

Sorry to hear of the phone snatching, it must have been horrible.  There is a lot of concern that the Met should be doing more.  Perhaps one of you will contact them and the Mayor to ask why this is not higher priority. I looked at the MPS website and there is some good (if obvious) advice about reducing the likelihood of theft: 

https://www.met.police.uk/police-forces/metropolitan-police/areas/about-us/about-the-met/campaigns/be-safe-campaign/be-safe-mobile-phone-theft/

https://www.met.police.uk/cp/crime-prevention/personal-safety-how-to-stay-safe/protect-your-mobile-phone-against-criminals-on-bikes-and-mopeds/

Ten years or so most of us would not have been carrying around such expensive and relatively light equipment.  I had a brick mobile taken when my house was burgled 20 years ago and they used this to make some expensive calls to abroad, I suspect to family members as most probably went to answerphone.   T-mobile, as is, profited from this  before I called them maybe a couple of hours after the break in, when  I got up in the morning,

I think it is useful to look at the numbers, 150 phones taken each day in London, maybe equates to maybe two dozen criminals.  Hopefully many will be caught.  There are probably 7 million mobile phone users in London, so less than 1% chance (1 in a 100) of your phone being stolen in a year.  That sounds like a lot (and is too much), but around twice as many bikes are stolen each day across the whole of the UK with about the same number of users (7 million).  And about 1 in 20 of us will be victims of fraud.

Crime is a societal issue, and very much for the government of the day, as well as us as good citizens.  I'm not sure where mobile phone theft lies in police priorities, as this is usually direct crime against the individual I understand that it should be higher than bike theft (which has certainly slipped down the order with the disbanding of a small special group which was part funded by TfL).  This is not a discussion on bike theft, just a comparison.

 

 

[Sue]

On 21/03/2024 at 12:17, Rockets said:

Liv so sorry to hear that - unfortunately there is so much of this type of crime the police can't/don't bother with it. Our son's friends' stolen phone was showing as being in a house on Barry Road but the police were not interested

 I get that with the reduction in police numbers,  those who are left have to prioritise the type of crime they choose to investigate/deal with.

What I cannot understand is why - when there is clear evidence of the whereabouts of a stolen item -  they cannot go to that house, search it, and ask questions which might well lead to any other people involved being caught as well 

Is there some aspect of police process which prevents them from doing this?

Or do they think the phone by the time they get there will no longer be there? I saw a photo recently online somewhere of hundreds of stolen  mobiles which had been found in one house, so presumably the police had some kind of lead in that particular case?

[Penguin68]

13 minutes ago, Sue said:

 I get that with the reduction in police numbers,

Actually, Police numbers have risen and are rising https://www.statista.com/statistics/864928/officer-numbers-of-the-metropolitan-police/

By this January there were over a thousand more police in London than last January. The link shows the changes since 2003 - we now have more police employed than at any time in the last 20 years, apparently!

[Sephiroth]

well yes - but that overlooks the point where this govt massively reduced police numbers (against much advice) and have been playing catch up ever since

 

Found a thread from over 10 years ago that touches on this type of crime and the kind of discussion we had then

 

 

Edited March 22, 2024 by Sephiroth

[Penguin68]

Met numbers are currently the highest they have been, very slightly more than the previous peak in 2010 at the end of the Brown Government. You are right that they fell and have taken time to rise again, but they have now reached their previous 21st Century peak. Despite this rise I see (anecdotally) far fewer 'on the streets' now - and they seem very reluctant to attend reported crime which doesn't involve personal injury (and not always then!). They are of course much occupied in 'policing' public protest and marches.

[Sephiroth]

Some insights here

 

(a LOT of experience disappeared with those cuts - replacing them with new bodies doesn't get you back to where you were)

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/aug/16/how-theresa-mays-careless-cuts-destroyed-britains-police-service

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/aug/11/senior-officer-police-investigate-crimes-inspectorate-report

[Rockets]

1 hour ago, Sue said:

 I get that with the reduction in police numbers,  those who are left have to prioritise the type of crime they choose to investigate/deal with.

What I cannot understand is why - when there is clear evidence of the whereabouts of a stolen item -  they cannot go to that house, search it, and ask questions which might well lead to any other people involved being caught as well 

Is there some aspect of police process which prevents them from doing this?

Or do they think the phone by the time they get there will no longer be there? I saw a photo recently online somewhere of hundreds of stolen  mobiles which had been found in one house, so presumably the police had some kind of lead in that particular case?

I think the issue is often kids are stealing these devices and securing a prosecution is very difficult - the kids are just the do'ers in a much larger network as these phones are not being flogged in pubs to mates but shipped internationally and part of a well organised network. The kids are often armed with all the information and background they need to make the police's job very difficult - they know what to say and what not to say, they all dress identically and ride identical bikes and wear face coverings as they know the police will struggle to identify them and the police will know that without a positive id securing any sort of prosecution is impossible.

 

The raid you are referring to is probably the one in Brockley and I bet a lot of those phones were taken from people in Dulwich.

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/men-arrested-brockley-stolen-mobile-phones-london-met-police-b1130365.html

 

 

[sandyman]

30 minutes ago, Penguin68 said:

Met numbers are currently the highest they have been, very slightly more than the previous peak in 2010 at the end of the Brown Government. You are right that they fell and have taken time to rise again, but they have now reached their previous 21st Century peak. Despite this rise I see (anecdotally) far fewer 'on the streets' now - and they seem very reluctant to attend reported crime which doesn't involve personal injury (and not always then!). They are of course much occupied in 'policing' public protest and marches.

I can only speak anecdotally but there certainly don't seem to be as many police around, either in cars or on foot. Around 25 years ago I was pulled over twice in the same month (I was innocent) and was even stopped by a bobby on the beat for cycling on the pavement. Can't remember the last time i saw a bobby on the beat.

[malumbu]

Different policing, no bobbies on beat and much lower involvement in traffic offences.  No longer pulling people up for rear lights not working.  Rely on ANPR a lot of the time I expect.  Worth going to Neighbourhood meetings.  I also get updates from community police.

[Jules-and-Boo]

It's also a factor of parenting and how children are brought up. 

[Rockets]

25 minutes ago, malumbu said:

Different policing, no bobbies on beat and much lower involvement in traffic offences.  No longer pulling people up for rear lights not working.  Rely on ANPR a lot of the time I expect.  Worth going to Neighbourhood meetings.  I also get updates from community police.

Very much different crimes as well - you could have hundreds more bobbies on the beat and you still would not stop kids riding up behind people and snatching phones. The problem is victims of robbery now carry an expensive device with a high resale value on their person and often walk down the road using it and not paying attention to their surroundings (the lady I shouted at on Townley some months ago to warn her she was about to be robbed was utterly oblivious to the fact that someone was circling her like a shark as she pushed her pram with her phone to her ear) - the risk/reward of that robbery is weighted way towards reward for the criminal. Compare that to street robberies in a time before phones where someone would have to confront someone for something on their person - there is a much higher risk that that person may not have anything of value on them or might wallop/apprehend you.

 

Phone snatching is a very high success/high reward/low risk rate crime and that is why it is so prevalent.

[sandyman]

18 minutes ago, Rockets said:

Very much different crimes as well - you could have hundreds more bobbies on the beat and you still would not stop kids riding up behind people and snatching phones. The problem is victims of robbery now carry an expensive device with a high resale value on their person and often walk down the road using it and not paying attention to their surroundings (the lady I shouted at on Townley some months ago to warn her she was about to be robbed was utterly oblivious to the fact that someone was circling her like a shark as she pushed her pram with her phone to her ear) - the risk/reward of that robbery is weighted way towards reward for the criminal. Compare that to street robberies in a time before phones where someone would have to confront someone for something on their person - there is a much higher risk that that person may not have anything of value on them or might wallop/apprehend you.

 

Phone snatching is a very high success/high reward/low risk rate crime and that is why it is so prevalent.

I think the frustration is also due to what was touched on in a post above - when a valuable phone is stolen we can see on a map exactly where it is and the police still do nothing about it. Never mind apprehending the culprit they don't even help you retrieve it. 

Edited March 22, 2024 by sandyman

[Dulwich dweller]

4 hours ago, Sue said:

What I cannot understand is why - when there is clear evidence of the whereabouts of a stolen item -  they cannot go to that house, search it, and ask questions which might well lead to any other people involved being caught as well 

Is there some aspect of police process which prevents them from doing this?

Quite possibly. I think the Police need a search warrant issued before they can enter a suspects home. It's not as straight forward as just turning up and gaining access because it has to be authorized. The warrant needs to be specific for both the item (s) being searched for and the location. There are exceptions to the rule for things like hot pursuit etc.

[Sue]

3 hours ago, Dulwich dweller said:

Quite possibly. I think the Police need a search warrant issued before they can enter a suspects home. It's not as straight forward as just turning up and gaining access because it has to be authorized. The warrant needs to be specific for both the item (s) being searched for and the location. There are exceptions to the rule for things like hot pursuit etc.

But surely it can't be a huge time consuming task to get a search warrant issued? 

Because although it would seem a relatively small thing they were looking for, it probably wouldn't be just one phone they found there, unless they were all passed on elsewhere very quickly.

Edited March 22, 2024 by Sue

[grajm]

A kid on a bike tried but failed to grab mine from my hand outside Denmark Hill station on Wednesday morning. Right in front of a cctv camera and didn’t even bother to cycle off especially quickly.

And another one looping around suspiciously on the pavement outside East Dulwich station this evening, although I didn’t see him try anything.

It does seem to be a bit of a trend.

[ianr]

It's a serious and demanding business getting a search warrrant.  The constable has to satisfy a judge of the reasonableness of the suspicion, and then some.  Scroll down to 'Application' in this guidance from the College of Policing to get an idea of what's involved.   This guidance is obviously a gold standard A+ exemplar  of what's required, and I dare say that in RL things may sometimes be a bit more relaxed.  But remember, get it wrong and it's the police who may end up in court being sued.

https://www.college.police.uk/app/investigation/investigative-strategies/search-powers-and-obtaining-and-executing-search-warrants

One critical thing that comes to mind.  A Find My Phone app may well seem to pick out a single house, but there's no guarantee that it's the correct one, or even the right street, and there are a number of factors that can affect the accuracy of the process, to varying degrees at different times.  If the phone doesn't have its Location switched on -- I only switch mine on when I need it, as it's an appreciable power user -- that in itself is likely to lessen a Phone Finder's accuracy.  It might  be a useful experiment  to try such an app, with one's phone in different types of location, and with GPS use both and off.

 

 

[Dulwich dweller]

1 hour ago, Sue said:

But surely it can't be a huge time consuming task to get a search warrant issued? 

It can be and can't be done immediately. Hoops to jump through and bureaucracy slows down the process.

[Sephiroth]

Another factor is this - if phone theft is as widespread as many fear, then let’s assume there is a big screen at police hq, showing all of the phones in their current location - how exactly  would you manage that number of locations with the number of officers at your disposal

 

and yes, it being difficult for police to obtain a warrant is a net Good Thing

 

lastly - when I had my phone nicked I assumed “find my phone” would help.  But I discovered that most stolen phones are immediately switched off and kept that way to prevent tracking 

 

Edited March 23, 2024 by Sephiroth

[Sue]

10 hours ago, ianr said:

It's a serious and demanding business getting a search warrrant.  The constable has to satisfy a judge of the reasonableness of the suspicion, and then some.  Scroll down to 'Application' in this guidance from the College of Policing to get an idea of what's involved.   This guidance is obviously a gold standard A+ exemplar  of what's required, and I dare say that in RL things may sometimes be a bit more relaxed.  But remember, get it wrong and it's the police who may end up in court being sued.

https://www.college.police.uk/app/investigation/investigative-strategies/search-powers-and-obtaining-and-executing-search-warrants

One critical thing that comes to mind.  A Find My Phone app may well seem to pick out a single house, but there's no guarantee that it's the correct one, or even the right street, and there are a number of factors that can affect the accuracy of the process, to varying degrees at different times.  If the phone doesn't have its Location switched on -- I only switch mine on when I need it, as it's an appreciable power user -- that in itself is likely to lessen a Phone Finder's accuracy.  It might  be a useful experiment  to try such an app, with one's phone in different types of location, and with GPS use both and off.

 

 

All good points, thanks ianr!