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[fredricketts]

Hi all,

We all know that the Councils are raking it in, but where is it all going? Parking fines, Red routes etc, are money spinners for the Councils and Government, that?s why Southwark Council can layout for brand new Spy Cameras, and on the other hand cut disabled facilities. They change laws to suite them, Peckham Bus Garage, West yellow Box. A total of 3,048 PCNs were issued in the Peckham/High St/Peckham Bus station for contraventions between 5 January 2010 until 21 August 2010. In eight months this one box ripped off at least, ?182,880. According to the law this box should not be there, Quote: A yellow box must be at the junction of at least two roads. Thus for example a yellow box at a bus garage exit and a road would not be valid. But because it is a good money spinner they applied for special permission to put it there, Planning said, they were not happy with the situation, but would let it go through.

It?s the Councils and Government that are causing most of the pollution in London, by creating more and more traffic jams.

[PeckhamRose]

All junctions should be treated as if there is a yellow box there; ie don't enter it if your exit is not clear or you will cause obstruction when the traffic starts moving from the other way.

The fact so many idiot car drivers don't have the common sense to realise that, means they need a little bit of help by painting a yellow box there. If they then "rake it in" as a result, good for them.

In some cases car drivers did successfully claim against the council's fines because they could not see the end of some yellow box junctions, and it was thus considered unfair. This was upheld and now councils have to be more reasonable where they place them. But that is not the case here. Do not enter yellow (or ANY junction) if you can not see that your exit is clear. What's your problem?

[Curly]

I thought it was now illegal to clamp on private land - or does that not apply to the council?

I've had one parking in 20 years - I walked past the ticket machine and forgot to buy a ticket.

[Freddy1929]

Drivers have a choice......................

don't park illegally................

don't drive in bus lanes..........

don't cross a junction, if your exit is not clear......

(all mentioned in Highway code?)

AND YOU WILL NOT GET A FINE!!!

and on top of that you will deprive Southwark of some very welcome cash!!!!!!!!!

bless you all - because if you didn't park illegally - my Council tax would go UP!!

[Penguin68]

You do, I think, need to be aware that all the things, parking restrictions, bus lanes, boxed junctions etc. are initially designed (and intended) to be restrictions upon our freedom for the greater good, to aid safetly, traffic flow etc.

When they become wheezes designed to act as revenue generators (i.e. where our freedoms are being reduced so that 'the management' can make money out of us) then your pious 'don't break the law and you won't get fined' attitude smacks of fellow travelling and 5th column work to me. I am entirely happy to abide within the law, when I think that law is being applied for its original and intended (by the legislators whom I elect) purpose. I will vote for parties who propose raisng taxes when they do so overtly (possibly) - but when officials or elected members use the power of the existing law to raise revenues covertly and through the back-door then I see no issue with complaining and calling it unfair.

There are increasing numbers of examples of officials imposing fines on people because they can, not because their restrictions are actually to anyone's benefit other than as covert taxes, taxes actually on our freedom.

Laws are not there to be 'obeyed' without thought or consideration. Too many societies have sleep-walked their way into being unfree by doing so.

[Loz]

Freddy1929 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Drivers have a choice......................

> don't park illegally................

> don't drive in bus lanes..........

> don't cross a junction, if your exit is not

> clear......

> (all mentioned in Highway code?)

> AND YOU WILL NOT GET A FINE!!!

As many have proven in the courts and the parking tribunal, that is not actually true.

> and on top of that you will deprive Southwark of

> some very welcome cash!!!!!!!!!

> bless you all - because if you didn't park

> illegally - my Council tax would go UP!!

Given the ringfencing of the proceeds, that's probably not true either.

[James Barber]

Many good things are funded from the surplus of fines, parking permits, parking charges overthe cost of collecting and enforcing e.g. lollipop patrols.

Council officers are telling me drivers are being more law obiding. So the surplus has been very gradually going down.

This is partly why parking fees have now been doubled and parking permits are going up by an average of 26%. Also the enforcement contract cost has been negotiated/specified down.

But every school in East Dulwich ward has parents and neighbours who've asked whether smart cars can enforce the law outside their neighbouring school.

Mention has been made of red routes these are Transport for London and not Southwark Council.

[sophiesofa]

The problem with the don't go in a box junction unless your way is clear argument is you will sometimes never get a chance if you want to turn right and the other traffic coming from the other direction is turning left. That wouldn't be a problem if other people didn't go through Amber/red lights or fill up the lane they turn onto despite you waiting but they do.

I am on the whole for making money from selfish driving / parking.

[Loz]

sophiesofa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The problem with the don't go in a box junction

> unless your way is clear argument is you will

> sometimes never get a chance if you want to turn

> right and the other traffic coming from the other

> direction is turning left. That wouldn't be a

> problem if other people didn't go through

> Amber/red lights or fill up the lane they turn

> onto despite you waiting but they do.

I am not a lawyer, but...

The box junction law is a lot more complex than 'you are not allowed to stop in a yellow box'. The highway code says:

Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see 'Road markings'). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.

So, you can enter and stop in the box if you are turning right.

Also, the highway code and the actual law don't exactly match up. The law says:

7. ? (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person -

(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and

(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.

There are technicalities in the law that aren't in the highway code contained in the phrase: "the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles". This has led to a defence where if you stop behind due to a stationary car, but the other lane is clear you have therefore chosen to stop (as you could have escaped if you had wanted to).

It also means that if you stop for pedestrians you should appeal as well. Also, the offence is at the time you enter the box, so if conditions change while you are in the box then you should appeal as well.

There are a lot of loopholes in the law that many councils ignore and just send out contravention notices to anyone that stops in a yellow box. Another example that supports my long held view that illegitimately issued tickets should be punished by the council having to pay the amount of the fine to the person involved.

[Penguin68]

Loz

Thank you for that useful exposition of what is a complex area of traffic law. Part of the purpose of box junctions was to ensure that traffic didn't queue across a junction thus impeding people turning right across the junction (or, if lights had changed, blocking flow across your route). Hence the point made earlier that putting a box where traffic simple entered a main road (from a bus park) didn't fall into the normal range of box junction objectives.

[fredricketts]

My Problem is, I don?t like being ripped off by Councils, TFL and the Government, and this is one of the reasons we are called rip off Britain. One of the reasons that there is such a shortage of parking spaces, is the Councils and the Government changed the law in regards to planning, they allowed car parks to be built on, and allowed flats and new builds to go ahead without any consideration as parking spaces.

90 per cent of the people caught in yellow boxes, do not do it deliberately, but by accident, and I cannot see them justifying ?60 to ?80 fines for 10 seconds in a yellow box. As for parking permits, they are an infringement of our freedom to go and visit friends and relatives on estates when we feel like it, without having to pay to do so. , but in the main they are used as revenue generating devices, not really as methods of restricting parking to residents. As for the 26% increase, its scandalous, it?s to increase revenue for the Council, and TFL, who all work together, in raising money for profit, and to rip off the motorists.

[paphio]

A little aside,

let us feel a bit privileged living in the only area that that close to Charing Cross ( where the mile 0 is ) where street parking is free.

Why? Maybe this has something to do with the fact that pretty much every Southwark councilor lives it leafy Dulwich...

It is not fair, but lets hope it lasts, because it greatly enhances quality of life. Would it not be great if all Londoners could park more freely?

[Loz]

They change laws to suite them, Peckham Bus Garage, West yellow Box. A total of 3,048 PCNs were issued in the Peckham/High St/Peckham Bus station for contraventions between 5 January 2010 until 21 August 2010. In eight months this one box ripped off at least, ?182,880. According to the law this box should not be there, Quote: A yellow box must be at the junction of at least two roads. Thus for example a yellow box at a bus garage exit and a road would not be valid. But because it is a good money spinner they applied for special permission to put it there, Planning said, they were not happy with the situation, but would let it go through.

Councils cannot just ignore the law - applying for 'special permission' doesn't exist. Planning don't have the power to disregard the law. The law says:

(a) ?box junction? means the area of carriageway marked with yellow cross-hatching at a junction between two or more roads on which there has been placed the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044;

If a box junction is not at a junction of two or more roads then it is not legally enforceable and you should appeal. Then contact the papers - the Evening Standard loves this stuff.

[Ratpack]

-- moved topic --

[fredricketts]

Hi All

Councils do ignore the law when it suites them, It is TFL that applied for the special permission.

I did appeal and won, after having to get freedom of information out of TFL, they are not bothered weather it is legal or not, they just lose your papers .if you have them by the short and cur lies, after all the unnecessary hassle of appealing, they just drop it, and no more is said.

Does anyone know where Southwark Council publish their Revenue accounts for Parking? As I have not been able to get this information on the Councils site, or indeed on their statement of accounts.

according to one judge, parking is not for profit, but the excess that they make is profit, and yes, it does go to other things in the borough, But at the end of the day, it is for profit, and is not just to keep the roads clear, because they put meters on main roads, half the main roads are taken up with Bus lanes and parking bays, no wonder our roads are so congested.

[fredricketts]

Hi All

Councils do ignore the law when it suites them, It is TFL that applied for the special permission.

I did appeal and won, after having to get freedom of information out of TFL, they are not bothered weather it is legal or not, they just lose your papers .if you have them by the short and cur lies, after all the unnecessary hassle of appealing, they just drop it, and no more is said.

Does anyone know where Southwark Council publish their Revenue accounts for Parking? As I have not been able to get this information on the Councils site, or indeed on their statement of accounts.

according to one judge, parking is not for profit, but the excess that they make is profit, and yes, it does go to other things in the borough, But at the end of the day, it is for profit, and is not just to keep the roads clear, because they put meters on main roads, half the main roads are taken up with Bus lanes and parking bays, no wonder our roads are so congested.

[BruceA]

They issue up to 9 ?130 tickets here every hour! The bay outside Iceland in Southwark Park Rd is a top earner too.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tve7yeQqJmg

[Huguenot]

Gives you some idea about how many car drivers think their own needs are more important than everyone else's ;-)

Park legally and you won't get a ticket.

[Annette Curtain]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Gives you some idea about how many car drivers

> think their own needs are more important than

> everyone else's ;-)

>

> Park legally and you won't get a ticket.

Or go by bike.

Hey, that's a thought. Maybe they build those lovely cycle-paths with the "fines" cash.

[Huguenot]

Well they only build them so car crivers can block them and then moan about the fine.