British workers

[womanofdulwich]

So, when I buy food, I always try and buy British food ( especially meat). When I go to a supermarket I look at the labels, and I usually ask where the meat comes from when I eat out.

Would it be possible to run something like this when we ask about a company? would it be too politically incorrect to ask how many of your staff are British?

I feel so sorry for our young people, who can't get their foot in the door; especially when there are so many people highly qualified from overseas who will do anything.

[StraferJack]

What answer would you be happy with?

100%? Less?

How many British workers abroad would the economy be able to absorb if they all had to come back?

What if the company itself isn't even owned by British people (like so many once British brands). Do you avoid them too?

[LondonMix]

Madness

[????]

Womanofdulwich is surely only saying more or less the same as the Labour Party did today?

[????]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23665022

Here. Lowest common denominator stuff from the Tories and Labour......anything to get elected eh?

[womanofdulwich]

There is no right answer, but I would give preference to a company that employed more British workers. If this was how people felt, then maybe companies would try harder. There is a system for energy consumption, organic food etc.

Young people, especially those that have just left school and are not going to university, are left with little guidance of where to go. Particularly with the increase in university fees. Secondary schools are not keyed up for this- they just push the university option, which is not suitable/affordable for everyone.

[StraferJack]

Do you think you overstate the problem tho, womanodfulwich?

Working conditions, pay and all of that are more important to how a society functions, than where people come from. Money is now far more fluid and international than ever before ? and people will migrate to follow the money (as Norman Tebbit so memorably advised them to)

But just how disadvantaged are british workers by immigration? Is an employer paying minimum wage really going to favour someone from Poland (or wherever) over a British worker just because of where they come from? I can?t see that myself

[DaveR]

"I feel so sorry for our young people, who can't get their foot in the door; especially when there are so many people highly qualified from overseas who will do anything."

Is this true, though? There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of highly qualified migrants taking relatively lowly jobs (cleaning, minicabbing etc.), because that is all that is open to them, but I don't think they are generally competing with young British workers. For better jobs there is now a pretty effective global market and nothing to stop young Britsh people competing both at home and abroad. Those most likely to be hampered in the modern job market are older workers who find themselves lacking relevant skills and younger workers who haven't managed to acquire them. In neither case are they likely to be assisted by you choosing where you place your business based on what nationality they hire. It's not a question of political correctness, but one of rationality.

[LondonMix]

Exactly! What you are saying WoD makes no sense. It seems to rest on the idea that the economy only has a fixed amount of jobs and that we should horde them for the British. That's simply not true. The heart of the economy is people providing each other with goods and services. There is no upper limit to how many jobs can be created or can exist. The problem with youth unemployment is that the unemployed don't have to skills to provide goods or services wanted by other people. The solution is training as well as stimulating business investment.

The idea that the way for the country to prosper is by insulating it from global competition (for goods, employment etc) is so wrong-footed its hard for me to understand how anyone could advocate this as a way forward.

[womanofdulwich]

But if British young people don't have the skills where are they going to get them? Won't they become the generation that never worked?

If companies thought they could get a better profile/ some co- ordinated training scheme wouldn't that help?

A long time ago I cleaned caravans on Saturdays when I was 14, worked my way up to washing up, waitressing, chambermaiding and shop work so that by the time I was 16 I was employable. Now there are loads of young people who can't seem to get started. There is so much red tape to start with. Of course the highly qualified people from Europe that come and work in shops etc here are desperate, whilst we as a country seem to want to bury the problem and palm our youngsters off with small sums of money to stay out of the way. I think we are building up a huge problem for the future.

Don't we have to invest in our young people?

[DaveR]

WoD, your first post suggested that the reason young Britons can't get a job is because they are crowded out by overseas workers - maybe we now agree that that's not really the case. I absolutely agree that we should invest in our young people but boycotting firms who employ foreigners (the implication of your OP) is a very poor way of doing this. A complete re-vamp of secondary education to introduce proper vocational courses for the large proportion of 14-18 year olds who would benefit from something other than a potentially sterile, overly academic curriculum during these years would be a good start. Tax breaks and other incentives for firms who operate modern apprenticeship schemes in collaboration with vocational colleges would be an obvious and beneficial further policy. In fact, a national education and training policy (implemented at arms length from government, local or national) similar to those well established in the majority of European countries.

[LondonMix]

Exactly. Germany has a great model of what DaveR describes and one of the lowest youth unemployment rates in Europe.

[uncleglen]

Young workers who are mobile are disadvantaged because they have no skills due to short-sighted Labour politics- wanting everyone to go to university. Older workers have children in school, a partner who also works and elderly parents to look after and so are less mobile. Meanwhile young Europeans come to the UK and in construction for example, 15 men will rent a 3 bedroom house! The youth unemployment in Spain is currently running at 57%.

[womanofdulwich]

I do not want to boycott anyone, but I wondered if we had more statistics then employers might be made more aware that if they employed British workers this would make them look good and so they would do more in terms of training programs etc.Dave R knows a lot more than me and is far more eloquent.

I think 14 is too young for vocational courses for many, but at 16 A levels seem inappropriate to many.

Is there a lobbying group for this Dave R?

[DaveR]

I think there are some good examples of firms that have made a virtue out of hiring locally when others are outsourcing (first direct spring to mind) and you can encourage that by giving those firms your business. There are also quite a number of firms that already have established relationships with specialist technology colleges, and the government is apparently committed to encourgaing much more of this, but I wouldn't hold your breath for dramatic action from government. At the individual level probably the best thing that anyone can do (at least if you are a parent) is ask your kid's school what they are doing to foster links between the school and potential future employers. When I was a school the 'careers' department was rubbish - an uninterested teacher with a box of cards with lots of different jobs written on them. Work experience was a tick box exercise that the school were not really interested in. I don't know if it's much better now, but IMHO it should be the top priority for any academy head teacher.

[OD]

WoD, quality is something that is yet to be mentioned here so.... if you had two restaurant chains.. one British owned and lets say 70% british staffed and one European owned and a mix of staff you would more likely to choose the British one?... but if the quality of the British one was not as high as the European one (e.g. poor customer service or not as good food) would you still make the same choice given those two options?

[womanofdulwich]

Good point OD.

I was just trying to think if we could make employers want to employ British workers, and there be some kind of system, such as when we see " all our foods are from sustainable sources" etc and apply it to employment somehow. ?? Some of the best and worst staff are not British.

Perhaps restaurants are not the best example. The percentage staff employed would be across the whole company , head office, payroll, cleaning etc so there might not be a direct correlation with the food at the point of delivery. If you are a parent or work with young children the whole get a job/ get qualifications/ work for free as an intern it very unsettling.

I think Dave R can give us some more leads!

[El Pibe]

I can't see why people seem to view people who are willing to move way out of their comfort zone, live in uncomfortable conditions and work hard just for the diginity of working for a living as somehow a bad thing.

It's partly an issue of people failed by the education system but just as much an endemic cultural issue of failing to attempt to work, whether whole estates in a multi-generational cycle of opting out of the society, but bloody media studies graduates deeming anything but their chosen career beneath them, whilst not doing a damn thing about stepping on the ladder to their goal rather than waiting for the economy to deliver it on to their laps.

Hmm, I'm ranting again ........ I blame the monkey tree.

[OD]

As a person within my organisation (which has the word British in it's title) who employs people...I'm not in HR; but I do write job descriptions, select CV's, interview and make the final decision whom to hire... I am ALWAYS looking for the BEST candidate for the job and NOT the fact they're British and there is nothing that suggests its of benefit to do otherwise.

The part of this conversation that I feel has real merit is to discuss how opportunities are created for British youth (in particular) to get the skills they need to compete for jobs in a global market, to learn the best ways to market themselves etc... HOWEVER if they themselves dont want to or see the need to gain these skills then regardless of what opportunities/training etc are avaialble the situation will remain the same.

[El Pibe]

I work in a sector that has really rather handsome rewards even for quite lowly support roles and as I cast my eyes round the office I can see at a glance 7 brits, a froggy, 3 saffas, 4 aussies, a kiwi, an Iranian, 2 Indians and a half breed spanish/caribbean type thingy.

I totally agree it about being the best candidate for the role, but if it's a general political goal (that certainly seems to chime a chord with the voters) to get the British economy working for the british then this must be deemed a faliure of education at the least, and perhaps even a more general failure of PR to persuade British youth that it's well within their grasp*.

Of course it might be that all the best candidates from Britain are working in New York, Frankfurt, Hong Kong, Dubai etc etc etc.....

*the best programmer I ever worked with used to fix helicopters in the army, never went to university and now heads up a decent sized international IT department for a very big american company.

[OD]

EL Pipe - would have to agree re many British best candidates actually working abroad; more than me probably realise! also your * point... somehow we also have to encourage recognition of vocational skills (as previously mentioned above)...as we all know qualification/certification does not equal experience.

[womanofdulwich]

This is all true, but if you are 16-22 you may have had little work experience, unless you " know someone" and I just wish there was a better way of directing young people into work. They may not know where to start and what kind of training they need. Once you are a bit older you an make you own way, but its the first step which is so hard for them.

[StraferJack]

It's not harder for them than moving whole continents to get a low paying job tho, is it?

I don't think young british people are quite as disadvantaged as you suggest

[El Pibe]

wot SJ said.

Things have got so desperate in Spain that they're finally getting off their arses and leaving the country, something utterly unkonwn prior to this (unless you were fleeing Franco).

My local Wasabi is practically a Spanish enclave (their manageress showing typical spanish parochialism by hiring every spaniard who wanders her way), and having spoken to them these are well educated, often experienced professionals serving up suhi as they try to find work.

Would that Brits were as willing to get on their proverbial bikes. Plus, isn't this what the freedom of movement of labour was all about that people scoffed saying language would be a barrier to this?

Perhaps language is another failing of our education system......

[womanofdulwich]

well there you are- yes Spanish employing Spanish. Parochial.

As I said the British young people are falling behind and missing out. Maybe they are lazy, but at the end of the day wouldn't we rather they were working and not sitting around ?