Derelict Grove Tavern - who to contact?

[ab29]

duplicate

Edited March 20 by ab29

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

9 hours ago, ab29 said:

Oh that is interesting.

@Andy Simmons you have been the local Labour councillour for years and years and years so you must be aware of this.

"The Grove saga should be coming to an end soon as the lease from the owners - The Dulwich Estate - held by Stonegate Pubs should run out this year. The group recently found financial backers to help with its £2.2 billion debt" - who are these backers?

"The Estate refuses to reveal anything about their plans for the site citing commercial confidentiality. But they have had many years to plan for the lease ending" - what are the plans, do you know? Why is it a secret? 

"However they spent  three years refurbishing  The Crown and Greyhound aka The Dog in Dulwich Village so don’t hold your breath for anything to happen to The Grove  in the near future!"

Three years to refurbish a pub 🤔

Wouldn't it make more sense to ask the guy who posted the rumours for the source of the information?

The Crown & Greyhound refurb was a big job - not surprising that it took longer than just a simple repainting. But renovating the Grove would be even bigger because it's totally wrecked, and there's a shortage of skilled labour and much more expensive materials now...

[hfoster]

It's also arguably a bit of a netherzone, not quite Dulwich, not quite Forest Hill. I don't think any pub will do particularly well without supporting businesses nearby. I think the best we're going to get is a block of flats with a commercial unit underneath, which will undoubtedly probably be a Tesco Metro.  

[Sue]

2 hours ago, hfoster said:

It's also arguably a bit of a netherzone, not quite Dulwich, not quite Forest Hill. I don't think any pub will do particularly well without supporting businesses nearby. I think the best we're going to get is a block of flats with a commercial unit underneath, which will undoubtedly probably be a Tesco Metro.  

I would have agreed, but the pub which was there previously seemed to do alright?

It might work the other way round, that if a pub was there the nearby businesses (eg the plant/flower  shop) might actually get more custom?

Admittedly that bar which was briefly on the corner of Melford (?) Road didn't do very well, but I think that was for different reasons.

[PickledPorcupine]

Id like to see the temporary skate park closed off and got rid of now, its getting too cringey listening to do gooders who own £1.5 million houses crow about 'how amazing it is that some local teenagers turned an unused area into a fantastic community hub' etc etc...they probably wouldnt say that if they lived beside it. 

Ideally we would have a Wetherspoons in its place so that those without huge salaries and mortgage free high value propreties (paid off with inheritance money) could have somewhere to go for cheap food and drink. Nowhere like that exists in Dulwich and the loss of The Capitol still resonates with the local hoi polloi. Unlikely to happen of course, since Spoons are now concentrating on opening pubs beside train stations and charging double the price for a pint compared to the usual Zone 3 neighbourhood Wetherpoons pub. 

 

[jazzer]

Sounds like a dose of severe sour grapes.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

4 hours ago, PickledPorcupine said:

cheap food and drink. Nowhere like that exists in Dulwich and the loss of The Capitol still resonates

The Castle

The Hill (just a few steps up from The Capitol site)

Royal British Legion club

You're welcome.

[CPR Dave]

The Dulwich Fox too. Get a bit of exercise in walking up Green Dale to get there and feel smug thst you have earned your cheap cheap delicious pint.

[Angell34]

I live opposite the Grove and it’s an eye sore and a fire hazard. Dulwich Estate should be ashamed of how they’ve let building just go to ruin. 
The skate park is a great edition. The creativity behind the build is to be commended. It’s always in use and there is normally a young woman in a high viz clearly rubbish and picking up trash, so it’s well looked after. The fact that parents bring their little ones here to use the skate park shows it has a purpose in the community. 
Unfortunately very late at night it’s used as a “party drinking zone” probably by people completely unrelated to the park. Last Saturday at 2am the music was blaring and you could hear the noise - incidents like this do cause an issue but it’s not the parks fault. 
We’ve already had 1 homeless chap living in that space and setting fire to it and that’s my main concern, that there will be a huge fire and someone will be injured or killed. Maybe Dulwich Estate wants it burnt down and declared derelict so then they can do what they want with the land - as I understand there is a “will covenant” regarding what they can do with it.  

Edited March 20 by Angell34

[PickledPorcupine]

15 hours ago, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

The Castle

The Hill (just a few steps up from The Capitol site)

Royal British Legion club

You're welcome.

Im well aware of the The Castle (which i like) and The Hill (not so much). Neither do cheap food, or in fact any food at all apart from crisps. The Royal Legion Club is not a pub but a members club in what looks like a house from the outside, with a bar. I doubt they do food either, but 'you're welcome' to correct me on that. 

Also anyone suggesting the Fox on the Hill, in Camberwell, i would suggest its better staying away. The place was an absolute shambles the other Sunday when it was sunny. The bar staff genuinely knew nothing about working behind a bar or even pouring a pint. It would have been amusing if we didnt have to wait 25 minutes for a drink. And thats without joining the ridiculous queue that muppets form around the pub. There were a lot of pissed off people in the pub and garden, and plates and plates of food just left on the side of the bar where people had given up receiving it having waited over an hour for it, and presumably initiated a chargeback via their bank.  

[malumbu]

Oh dear.  I've been there numerous times, it's hit and miss.  Generally OK so I wouldn't judge it on one occasion. Perhaps they aren't great at scaling up for sunny days.  The Woodhouse used to be like that when it was a great pub in the old days.  Sun would come out and families turn up, with no extra staff.  It's horrid now 

You can order the Backyard pizza at the Castle and I expect they still have Van Dough at the Blythe; under Co you could also bring your chip supper into the garden.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

___

Edited March 20 by Dogkennelhillbilly

[EDmummy101]

On 28/02/2025 at 00:23, imogen said:

The younger (and some older) people have taken an unused unloved space and made it their own. Where do we think young people should go? I was involved in a campaign with a group of younger people a few years ago to get a skate park built. I was so shocked by the backlash and nastiness from a vocal 'adult' few. The young people themselves said that they are told they shouldn't spend all their time on screens and yet when they come together and do something that is physical that involves socialising and positive connection they get slated for it. The skating community is so welcoming and supportive. Come on people - see the bigger picture and the positives. They've made a good place to be out of nothing - they are recycling and building and being creative and social and entrepreneurial. I suggest we reflect on what the real issue is here. Have a look at this - 

 

Really interesting.. 

I recently saw a campaign for more places for teens to hang out. At first I thought there are plenty of places but that really isn't true, especially since consecutive governments reduced funding into youth clubs and community centres so most are privately run by charities now.

More needs to be done, as screens are fine for a while but can be so addictive and hinder social interaction 

[BrandNewGuy]

On 16/03/2025 at 21:14, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

Wouldn't it make more sense to ask the guy who posted the rumours for the source of the information?

The Crown & Greyhound refurb was a big job - not surprising that it took longer than just a simple repainting. But renovating the Grove would be even bigger because it's totally wrecked, and there's a shortage of skilled labour and much more expensive materials now...

Wasn't part of the reason for the extensive C&G refurb that they discovered a very old bowling alley (I think?) and had to allow for archaeological and structural matters to be resolved before they could complete it?

[ab29]

@Andy Simmons as the area Labour councilor of many years, can you please provide an update on the Grove Tavern situation? A real eye sore, left abandoned for many years - there should've been a block of flats, new park or a shop built in its place by now.

Labour seems to be bent on destroying whatever little green space is left in the country - why not to use places like this instead to build on?

 

Edited March 23 by ab29

[ab29]

On 16/03/2025 at 21:14, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

Wouldn't it make more sense to ask the guy who posted the rumours for the source of the information?

The Crown & Greyhound refurb was a big job - not surprising that it took longer than just a simple repainting. But renovating the Grove would be even bigger because it's totally wrecked, and there's a shortage of skilled labour and much more expensive materials now...

"Wouldn't it make more sense to ask the guy who posted the rumours for the source of the information?" - perhaps, probably, you might be right.

"But renovating the Grove would be even bigger because it's totally wrecked, and there's a shortage of skilled labour and much more expensive materials now..." -

yeah, but all of this was also true 12 years ago - imagine how much more the building is wrecked by now and how much more expensive materials are - and how very little skilled labour is available in England now 🤔

 

[Jenijenjen]

Good luck with hoping Andy Simmons will see your message - he hasn't logged in for 15 years

[ab29]

Telling. How much we miss the only Southwark councillor I've ever met and talked to - James Barber

[Glemham]

Isabel Ramirez a journalist with Southwark News wrote an article - sadly behind their paywall - in October last year. “Why has this pub in Dulwich been vacant for twelve years?” There was no response from the Dulwich Estate.

Perhaps you could contact her:    [email protected]     M.07939857532

As the lease is due this year, and nothing has happened since last October she might be interested in asking some more questions.

Many years ago Private Eye published an article criticising  the Estate’s response to parents in West Dulwich who wanted to adapt their home for a disabled child. I seem to remember that the Eye referred then  to the DE as the ‘Village Idiots’.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

On 23/03/2025 at 16:14, Jenijenjen said:

Good luck with hoping Andy Simmons will see your message - he hasn't logged in for 15 years

Maybe bickering online with a bunch of pseudonymous misanthropes isn't the best way to serve the community. 🤷

Edited March 31 by Dogkennelhillbilly

[jazzer]

Isn't the idea to see something constructive emerge from the derelict Grove Tavern and that also allows the skate park to continue. 

[fredricketts]

On 16/03/2025 at 21:14, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

Wouldn't it make more sense to ask the guy who posted the rumours for the source of the information?

The Crown & Greyhound refurb was a big job - not surprising that it took longer than just a simple repainting. But renovating the Grove would be even bigger because it's totally wrecked, and there's a shortage of skilled labour and much more expensive materials now...

They will probably build  several blocks of flats, I should imagine Southwark Council would like to get their hands on it. they just leave it till it wants pulling down, as its not a listed building.

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

On 23/03/2025 at 18:49, Glemham said:

Isabel Ramirez a journalist with Southwark News wrote an article - sadly behind their paywall - in October last year. “Why has this pub in Dulwich been vacant for twelve years?” There was no response from the Dulwich Estate.

As I understand it, Dulwich Estate own the property, but it is leased to Stonegate. DE have tried to get Stonegate to return the lease so that they can do something with it, but they have not. As the lease expires this year, we'll probably see something happening to it. My money would be on flats as @fredricketts says. Whilst some might want a Wetherspoons (not me personally), that seem incredibly unlikely following the recent closure of the Capitol just up the road.

[ArchieCarlos]

A nice article has recently been published about the Grove here:

https://pa-training.shorthandstories.com/dulwichs-grove-tavern/index.html

"We will start looking for a pub operator shortly.”

Karen Wood, Head of Communications at the Dulwich Estate

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

On 30/03/2025 at 19:51, fredricketts said:

 I should imagine Southwark Council would like to get their hands on it. 

Southwark doesn't own it, doesn't have the money to buy it at the market rate it would have to pay, and doesn't have a ton of money lying around to build several blocks of flats. And I don't think there's enough room for several blocks of flats - perhaps one 30 storey block to soar above the traffic. That'd be nice.