"wow, she's pretty for a black girl"

[mockney piers]

True enough Annaj, but then I've some middle age spread which is entirely natural.

Doesn't mean I go round in a t-shirt that only goes slightly below my nipples now ;)

[James]

I do sympathise, however it's probably not quite as bad as having a group of local kids shout out "faggot", "battyman" etc. at me and my partner as we waited for a train a couple of years ago.

It's no longer acceptable to be 'overtly' racist, however it seems you can be overtly homophobic and get away with it quite easily.

[SeanMacGabhann]

That is soooo offensive to those of us with ACTUAL middle-age spread!! *

If Mockney Piers is allowed to claim he has "middle-aged spread" then I'm claiming I have.... well I'm not claiming anything. but Pur-leeeease!!!!

* inappropriate and gratuitous use of the word "offensive" there

[SeanMacGabhann]

I think they (racism and homophobia) are as bad as each other still James

Had you posted your experience I'm sure we would have rallied to your offence... er defence! Doesn't mean idots with all manner of prejudice aren't out there. And if it's any consolation I've had the same insults slung at me. Whislt walking with my girlfriend... I don't know if that makes it worse or better!

[bignumber5]

SeanMac - interestingly, i've been of the receiving end of both types of prejudice, of sorts, despite neither of them applying to me. As a bloke in nursing it is frequently assumed that I am gay, and I get called a range of derogatory names for such fairly regularly (and occasionally asked-out by chaps with crap gay-dar... all pre-wedding ring, obviously ;-) ). And when I shaved my head one summer, I suddenly realised that a tall blonde man is unremarkable but a big fair guy with a shaved head is a target for big groups of black teenagers looking for agro with anyone who might look a bit skinhead-ish.

James, I sympathise with your experiences (note- sympathise, NOT empathise, I am not claiming that the experiences that I have relayed are at all the same) as much as muffintops (to be racially slurred and patronised in one sentance by a pinstriped walrus, well done for not rising to them) but I think that which hate-attack is or is not "quite as bad" is unfair. To be attacked for anything that you are is deeply personal, and I suspect that only an openly gay person of mixed race who has experienced both could give anthing resembling an answer, but even then it would only be which gets to that individual more, not which is "worse".

[KoolBananas]

Very good point bignumber5.

"fatty" "ugly" "foureyes" "shorty" etc are just as cutting to some people.

[James]

Take your point(s) and I do sympathise with Muffintop to some degree.

However I do think it's an inescapable fact that we are further along the tracks with regard to racial equality than we are with equality towards people who are gay.

You wouldn't be allowed to use a racial slur on the radio, for example, whereas the use of the word 'gay' to mean rubbish is commonplace - particularly from that nasty idiot Chris Moyles. The comment directed at Muffintop is pretty mild compared to the abuse I've had to put up with over the years. If someone said I was "pretty fit for a gay boy" I would probably be flattered!

[pk]

James Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Take your point(s) and I do sympathise with

> Muffintop to some degree.

>

> However I do think it's an inescapable fact that

> we are further along the tracks with regard to

> racial equality than we are with equality towards

> people who are gay.

>

> You wouldn't be allowed to use a racial slur on

> the radio, for example, whereas the use of the

> word 'gay' to mean rubbish is commonplace -

> particularly from that nasty idiot Chris Moyles.

> The comment directed at Muffintop is pretty mild

> compared to the abuse I've had to put up with over

> the years. If someone said I was "pretty fit for a

> gay boy" I would probably be flattered!

it's not a competition you know (and certainly not 'inescapable fact')

i think that it's a shame that you only sympathise 'to some degree', seems pretty selfish to me

[Keef]

Yeah, but one stereotype about gay men is that they are fantastically stylish and all that, so you wouldn't be likely to hear that phrase. The phrase "she's pretty, for a black girl" suggests that black girls are not generally pretty, and that is well out of order.

No one would suggest that homophobia isn't rife, and possibly more so today than racism (although I'm not sure about that at all), but that is not to take away from muffintop's experience this morning.

[James]

Why so patronising Keef?

Nice to know you are an expert on racism and homophobia. Tip: black people and gay people might know a little better than you on this subject, having personal experience. Just for the record my boyfriend is mixed race.

I'm glad that I am supposed to be flattered by the emasculating, banal stereotype that gay men are "stylish and all that." This contributes to the idea that all gay men are flippant, materialistic and shallow so thanks very much for that Keef.

And with regard to your suggestion that "it's not a competition" i think it's entirely relevant to put things into perspective. Your knee-jerk response only convinces me even more.

[Keef]

James Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Why so patronising Keef?

How was I patronising, and how can you call me patronising, and then went on to write the rest of this.

> Nice to know you are an expert on racism and

> homophobia. Tip: black people and gay people might

> know a little better than you on this subject,

> having personal experience. Just for the record my

> boyfriend is mixed race.

I never said I was an expert on racism or homophobia either, but is that to say I should have no opinion on it?

> I'm glad that I am supposed to be flattered by the

> emasculating, banal stereotype that gay men are

> "stylish and all that." This contributes to the

> idea that all gay men are flippant, materialistic

> and shallow so thanks very much for that Keef.

Read back and tell me where I said you should be flatered about any stereotype... I just said that as IT WAS a stereotype (which you haven't denied, and have basically just confirmed!), it was unlikely that anyone would say "he's fit, for A GAY man".

>

> And with regard to your suggestion that "it's not

> a competition" i think it's entirely relevant to

> put things into perspective. Your knee-jerk

> response only convinces me even more.

I never typed the word competition, that was the post before mine. But this was a thread about a particular incident. As Piers said, if you came on here saying "some git just shouted homophobic stuff at me at the bus stop" or something like that, I am sure you would have gotten a lot of sympathy. I also suspect you'd have been just a tad annoyed if someone had then come on to your thread and said, yeah whatever, the abuse black people get is much worse.

I wasn't looking for a row, I was joining in a conversation, but I'll shut up until I feel suitably victimised for my opinion to be worthy.

[KoolBananas]

James Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Why so patronising Keef?

>

> Nice to know you are an expert on racism and

> homophobia. Tip: black people and gay people might

> know a little better than you on this subject,

> having personal experience. Just for the record my

> boyfriend is mixed race.

>

Really? just these two types know? What about all the other groups that suffer these isms and phobias? Those of Asian/white backgrounds, bi sexuals, transgenders. James don't be so narrow minded.

Sorry to hi-jack the thread

[James]

So the other people I'm talking to are of these minorities, are they Koolbananas? Missing the point... (on purpose I think)!

And Keef, I make no apologies for putting it into perspective. I have had all kinds of verbal abuse for being gay - much, much worse than an ignorant, flippant remark like this.

Quite telling how you're all clambouring to attack me as you attempt to look the most pc. Pretty much proves my point really!

[KoolBananas]

yes of course James you're the only one who can express an opinion.

My apologies for continuing to direct the thread away from the initial thread.

[James]

I think it is a legitimate point that if we're talking about discrimination towards minorities, straight white middle-class males may not be best qualified to tell everyone how it is...

[KoolBananas]

Keef I assume he means you mate ;-)

[blinder999]

KoolBananas Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Keef I assume he means you mate ;-)

dunno about that, Keef's pretty fly (for a white guy)

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Not sure Keef is straight either, he's usually listing at 75 degrees.

[Keef]

I don't believe in class and will not be labelled as such! I also never attacked anyone or tried to be pc. I pointed out that you're arguement about someone saying you were fit for a gay guy wasn't really comparable to the original incident. I stand by that, it doesn't make me homophobic James for the love of God. Read everything I said again when you are feeling less like the whole world is against you.

[????]

How about?

"You two are pretty ugly for white middle aged businessman....and to be honest that's saying something"

[????]

for what it's worth, I do think James has an entirely valid point that casual homophobia is far more tolertaed than racism...even in 'liberal' circles. However, James fella your tone does come accross as slightly "I'm a bigger victim than you" victimhood like.

peace and love from quids (white, middle aged, straight)

[muffintop]

Wow, the feelings and differing opinions threads evoke eh! but thank you so much for all your support, found it quite overwheling and touching, although I didn't think it would cause so much of a stir, sorry. I abhor every type of discrimination, be it racial, religious, sexual the whole spectrum, not necessary in today's world, am glad I kept (an albeit) unintentional "dignified silence", looking back on it I probably would have just gotten through half of the retort and then blubbered through frustration/anger!

Will try and make it to the next forum drinks, muffintop and all! thought the name was very apt!

[Guest]

Muffintop, all those who are commending your restraint are probably right, but, if I'm honest, in your position I would probably have looked him in the eye and said, 'C**t'. I'm not a morning person.

[fish]

Ms B Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Muffintop, all those who are commending your

> restraint are probably right, but, if I'm honest,

> in your position I would probably have looked him

> in the eye and said, 'C**t'. I'm not a morning

> person

Quite so! >:D<

[Moos]

:)-D I do like Ms B.