Heber Primary Ofsted

[midivydale]

Good demographic? What does that mean?

[saturdaysmiler]

Hear hear Camudgeon!

[Saila]

How long has the 'tougher' ofsted process been in place - anyone know?

[bonaome]

I went to the Q&A at the school last night. The basis of the complaint to Ofsted, which the LA is supporting, is that the inspection was not properly conducted. Certainly the report does not reflect my experience of the school (daughter yr3) or the experience of the other parents I know.

I know the school to be a happy community of kids who are well behaved, who know and understand the school values, and who are really supportive of one another. It's a lovely school, in my experience, and happpily I think that is somewhat reflected in the Ofsted report. I think there is more to being a good school than just academic progress.

Academic progress is of course important. And I also believe that teaching at the school is good, or better and that the Ofsted report judgements are wrong, and that in this area the school was not correctly assessed. It seems Southwark LA agrees, and that is why they are supporting the complaint. At the meeting last night it was very clear to me that the school has not been generously assessing its own performance, but that they have consistently involved the LA and external consultants to validate their approach and progress.

The value added score is 99.7 the data available here

http://www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=100793

But I don't know when that data point was generated. It's certainly the case that there's very little variance in these scores for schools in the area - compared to the variance in the data set - and I wonder if it tells a story about inclusion and sen provision in the borough as a whole and e school in particular. I know both these are things that the school has been addressing.

The KS2 performance tables tell the tale of an improving school.

Percentage achieving Level 4 or above in both English and mathematics

2009 2010 2011 2012

Heber 63% 76% 77% 85%

LA 72% 73% 77% 83%

England 72% 73% 74% 79%

(Source is the data set I link to above - sorry I can't get the formatting better)

All in all, I think the school has been poorly represented in the Ofsted and I support the Head and the governors in their complaint against Ofsted.

[kristymac1]

thank you for tge info bonoame, helps to put things in perspective,, I wasn't able to make the meeting yesterday but the feedback from those who went has been very positive

[LondonMix]

The value add score was as of 2012-- it is measured every year and for Heber has been below 100 for a couple of years from memory. They do fine in English (100) but its the Math's element (99.4) where they aren't progressing students as expected. http://www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=100793

The way this is determined is by looking at where students were for KS1 and seeing how much progress students with a similar starting point make by KS2. This is based on the national average so is a relative not absoulte measure of progress. Essentially, given their initial ability, kids at Heber don't progress in math at the same rate similarly capable students do nationally.

As motorbird says the other schools in the area all without exception have scores of 100 or better (Bessemer, Goose Green, Goodrich, Bessemer, Dulwich Hamlet) and compared to other local schools Heber seems to progress disadvantaged pupils less well than the others.

With all that said, its hardly a failing school and its no surprise that parents in general are happy. However, its not that surprising that a school whose teaching in maths is producing below expected progress has been rated needing improvement. Below average (even slightly) doesn't exactly warrant a rating of Good.

bonaome Wrote:

>

> The value added score is 99.7 the data available

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Does anyone find it strange they did the Inspection the first few weeks of the term?

More so as the nursery teachers were judged outstanding at teaching and kids do well but it was the first week (2nd week for some)and there is no way the teachers can take credit for how the children were. I find it bizarre .

[Magpie]

On the progression point - are they measuring the improvement in performance given the starting point, as opposed the to overall level of performance? It could be the case that Heber has higher performing students at KS2 compared with other ED schools, its just that overall progression from KS1 is less rapid?

On the demographic point - I would imagine that Heber has lower proportion of disadvantaged or special needs children, or whatever it is, plus a lower proportion of children who speak english as a foreign language, than other ED schools that have large social housing blocks in the catchment area.

[Jessie]

What is the correlation between social housing and special needs??

[bawdy-nan]

Quite, Jessie. Children with a statement of special educational needs are not admitted to a school on the basis of proximity, rather, suitability of school.

[bonaome]

DulwichBorn&Bred Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Does anyone find it strange they did the

> Inspection the first few weeks of the term?

> More so as the nursery teachers were judged

> outstanding at teaching and kids do well but it

> was the first week (2nd week for some)and there is

> no way the teachers can take credit for how the

> children were. I find it bizarre .

Inspections happen at all times of the academic year. Obviously when an inspection is in the first few weeks of the Autumn term this means that teachers will not know their class well and will have little work to show inspectors. In this case the inspectors are supposed to review the work from the teacher's previous year's class. This was discussed last night at the meeting and is another area where, as I understand it, there were irregularities and the proper procedure wasn't followed - along with many other things that were detailed. I have to say, it seems to me that the inspection was a shambles.

There's a meeting next Tuesday at the school to talk about "the data" - the tracking data the school uses to monitor progress of pupils through the school from reception to leaving. I'd urge parents who can attend to do so. It's a good opportunity to discuss the value added score, and if I can make it I shall do that.

[canela]

not all children are admitted to a school already with a SEN. In many cases the SEN needs are only identified once formal schooling starts, and are only moved if the school is unable to provide the necessary support.

[bawdy-nan]

yes, canela, of course and, in fact, primary school often a very good partner is identifying need and advocating for support

[redjam]

I also attended the meeting last night and share the dismay of the teaching staff and other parents that the school that my kids know and love was not represented accurately in the report. Of course there is room for improvement - there is always room for improvement - but I'm confident that the school is taking positive steps in these areas and I can see with my own eyes that it has steadily improved in the five years since my daughter started. I can only speak from my own experience but I have always been happy with the teaching and I think the staff there are a hardworking, dedicated bunch who really care about the children.

Personally I thought the meeting was handled very well and I feel the school's approach to the report was spot on - they intend to fight vigorously what seems a strong case about the manner in which the inspection took place yet at the same time to take on board the criticisms and continue to focus on these areas (which of course they'd already been doing). They are clearly desperate to have another inspection ASAP to have a chance to show what they can do.

If you are a new parent at the school I would urge you not to worry - Heber is a great school with loads going on and a warm, caring staff. I am desperately sorry for the school that this has happened but I guess one good thing to take away from it is that there will be an extra focus on the areas that appear deficient (i.e. value-added pupil progress). But I really hope this isn't at the expense of all the other wonderful things that do that make it such a happy environment - the music performances, the amazing art, the trips, the visiting authors, the kid-run fundraising projects etc. For me, those things say far more about a school than statistics.

[LondonMix]

Yes Magpie. The value add measures how much they have learned and compares this against other pupils who started at the same point nationally.

The problem with looking at overall performance is that it can both under or overstate how well a school is educating its pupils. If a school has an intake that is starting from a really low level and progresses them to Level 4 that shows phenomenal teaching. Another school with a more prepared / more capable intake achieving the same may actually not be pushing those students to their full potential as with better teaching perhaps they would be at Level 5.

The value add score is the only measure that neutralises the impact of the intake of a school and gets down to what the teaching itself is doing which is why its so important.

[EDmummy]

Just a thought but I wondered if there appeared to be a drop in progress from KS1to KS2 because a proportion of able students leave the school at the end of year 3 to go into private education or move outside London to take advantage of Grammar schools at secondary. I know of at least 4 cases myself from one year group.

[LondonMix]

No, the value add measures the individual progress of pupils. A pupil that leaves wouldn't be included at all.

Don't get me wrong- Heber isn't failing. It's average in English and slightly below average in math.

[Magpie]

I think I had incorrectly conflated special needs with a demographics point. From the report:

"Around 18% of pupils are known to be eligible for additional support through the pupil premium,

which provides additional funding for looked after children, those eligible for free school meals

and the children of service families. This figure is below the national average. There are a few

pupils looked after by the local authority, and no pupils from service families at the school."

"Around 14% of the pupils speak English as an additional language and this proportion is above

the national average."

I would expect that there would be more children on free school meals, and with English as an additional language in other schools in ED due to the presence of social housing blocks in the catchment area. The latter point would certainly be expected to impact on absolute performance.

[katgod]

Been nosing about on the Department of Education and other Government websites. As my children are happy and performing well I have never really looked at these CVA scores before. What is not being noted is that the CVA needs to be looked at alongside 'confidence indicators' which tell how true the results are. Paraphrasing the reports I have read, each school gets a CVA score plus a higher and a lower level confidence indicator. Heber's upper and lower confidence indicators straddle the 100 line, which means that you can't say whether it is above or below the average. Of course it could be better but it is not quite so doom and gloom, nor as clear cut, as some may suggest.

http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/primary_12/KS1-2_Value_Added_Guide_2012.pdf

[OhWell]

I was stunned by the Ofsted because it seemed correct to me -- particularly the poor marking of school work, the underuse of student records to design tasks that build from current abilities, and the poor engagement of children at the top and the bottom of the academic spectrum. These have been my primary complaints over the years, and many parents I encounter feel as I do (perhaps because we're dealing with the same teachers). Frankly, I'm quite impressed that Ofsted caught these issues.

That being said, I look forward to the positive changes the Ofsted report will prompt. In fact, now that official light has been shed on these problems I'm more inclined to keep my children at Heber. If the nursery can rise to Outstanding since the last Ofsted, surely the rest of the school can.

[LondonMix]

Katgod, that's fair. The link below provides clearer guidance from the Department of Education--

http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/archive/primary_10/p3.shtml (to quote)

"A school level CVA measure must always be interpreted alongside the CI. Schools where the lower limit of the CI is above 100 represent schools where pupils on average made significantly more progress than pupils nationally, while schools where the upper limit of the CI is below 100 represent schools where pupils made significantly less progress."

To put it in context Heber's CIs are 99 to 100.4 so broadly average though with a strong likelihood to be very slightly below average at 99.7.

However, what's more worrying and indicative of a deeper problem that needs to be addressed is how it progresses those who start as low attainers.

In comparison to Bessemer and Hamlet--

For Math: Bessemer gets 100% of its middle level attainment students to make two levels of progress in math vs. 97% at Hamlet and 90% at Heber. For its low attainers, Bessemer gets 88% to move up two levels vs. 86% at Hamlet and a disgraceful 33% at Heber?.

For English: Bessemer gets 94% of its middle attainers to make two levels of progress, vs. 94% at Hamlet and 95% a Heber. But again, for low attainers Heber?s results are shocking! Bessemer gets 81% of its low attainers to make two levels of progress vs. 86% for the Hamlet and 33% for Heber.

This comparison is local rather than national which overstates the problem as London in general has much better performing schools than the country as a whole. So while Heber may be more or less average by national standards by local standards it could learn a lot by working with other local schools to ehance teaching. I hope that's ultimately the strategy the school employs. Within Southwark, Heber's value add scores ranks it 60th out of 65...

[saturdaysmiler]

Hi,

You have got some of your data incorrect London mix... Need to ensure you write the correct data!!

It would also be interesting to note that this is 2012 data and looking at the previous years Heber is definitely improving year on year. I've said it before ... Tables are there to be manipulated . My friend has a statement child and even though the child can't do the sats there non results will be included!!! How farcical is that!!! Wonder how many schools get rid of children that they know won't help them meet their targets??!!!! Table mania gone mad and people believe the hype! If your child is happy and improving what could be better?

[LondonMix]

Which data? Please be specific so I can change it if I made a mistake. I do (like everyone) make mistakes and don't want to spread incorrect information.

Edited to add source data:

http://www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=136665

http://www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=130918

http://www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=100793

[Otta]

When will peopke reakise that Ofsted reports are not worth the paoer they're printed on?

Ofsted are the most self important, pointless organisation in the UK. FACT!

[LondonMix]

OFSTED has its flaws (as does the government's plans for education).

However so do parents and this goes to all the demographic comments people have been making.

Bessemer Grange is a fantastic school and gets great outcomes for its entire intake. Its value add is the highest of all the ED-area schools (including better than the Hamlet). It also has one of the highest absolute academic performance figures of the local schools just behind the Hamlet with 86% achieving level 4.

It does this with an intake that has 43% of the kids on free school meals and 33% with English as a 2nd language. However, instead of this being one of its championing points, I think those figures combined with the fact that it has a huge minority intake is the reason why its one of the EASIEST local schools to get into.

People think demographics matter more than teaching and it doesn't. I know the location is a bit tricky but if this school served a more affluent / white intake, ED parents would be walking over hot coals to get their kids a place regardless of how tricky it was to get to.

Rant over...