Trying to buy a house in this area is near impossible

[Cyclemonkey]

Commuting is mainly a middle class luxury.

Imagine you do a minimum wage job such as cleaning, bar work or catering. Many of them are anti social hours - starting at 4am or finishing at 2am. You hourly rate is say ?8 p/H (that's over minimum wage) say you worked a 35 hour week - that's ?280 a week before tax - that's around ?14,800 a year before tax - given that annual season tickets from the home counties run into several thousands a year for a service that many people doing these jobs will not be able to use (name me a train that runs from the Kent commuter belt that arrives in Central London for 4am or indeed takes you back again at 2am) you can immediately begin to see why commuting does not work for those doing many low paid minimum wage jobs.

[StraferJack]

cyclemonkey - remind me how much pa a zone 1-6 pass is for public transport in London

Lot's of minimum wage workers will be living out there and bussing/tubeing it in to central London. That is a huge chunk of change as well

[Jeremy]

I think CM meant that living right out in the sticks and commuting in isn't doable on that sort of salary. Of course, living in outer London and comuting in for ~2K PA should be OK (granted there would be little left, and it's not much of a reward for 5 days a week of tiring work).

[Cyclemonkey]

I know many minimum wage workers live in the outer reaches of zone 6, i was mainly talkign about people commuting in form areas outside London. However even Zone 6 is a push on minimum wage in London - In 2000 I commuted from just outside Zone 6 to a job in Farringdon for six months after i graduated and it was punishing - i had to get up at 5.45am to get to work for 8.30am and i paid ?270 a month for a monthly railcard with tube zones. I was on ?16,000 a year and my rent at the time was ?275 a month to live in a ramshackle Victorian house shared with 5 mates. It was fine at 21, i'm not sure i'd want to do it at 36.

In the end i moved to New Cross as i calculated that the saving on travel would more than pay for the rent increase.

[StraferJack]

I agree with your general point CM, but thought the line " given that annual season tickets from the home counties run into several thousands a year " was misleading given the same happens within London

your point about services outside core hours remains totally valid of course

regarding an earlier point about not having a right to buy where one grows up - I sort of agree. However:

If one is brought up in a relatively (nb) ramshackle and unglamorous part of SE London - and even with years and years of influx, Lordship Lane isn't glamorous - and one is raised to get an education, degree and a good job in (say) medicine or the city and even THEN can't afford to buy where one grows up... well, again, alarm bells should be ringing

Saying "there is no right to".... is basically saying "it's always been thus so no need to worry"

i wonder what it would take to make some people wory before calamity strikes

[Cyclemonkey]

Strafer - just looked, an annual Zone 1-6 travel card is over ?2000 so getting a travel card to travel from the edges of London to the centre does indeed run into the thousands.

A bus pass is around ?700 annually but travelling by bus every day form the edges to the centre is a fairly tortuous business. I go to work by bus but Peckham to the City is a bit different than Bromley or Thmaesmead to the city.

Also i expect there are no interest free season ticket loans for many low waged people as well.

[Jeremy]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> a good job in (say) medicine

> or the city and even THEN can't afford to buy

> where one grows up

I don't think we've quite reached that level of ridiculousness yet, have we?

It's the middle earners on say 35-40K a year who are starting to struggle to buy anything in London - at all.

[StraferJack]

That isn't a middle-earner Jeremy, surely?

That would be a high-earner in a good job for most people

[LD929]

This is a complicated topic which seems to have derailed considerably from the original discussion. My two (or three or four) cents on the topic are:

1) There needs to be meaningful rent reform that provides more security to renters to live somewhere long term without the fear of being kicked out or facing significant increases in rent. Part of this is that the market needs to adjust to longer term contracts (say, +5 years with breaking only possible by the tenant), with rights to renew, etc. The other part is rent control.

2) A lot more houses need to be built. I always thought part of the problem here is planning permission (though, I think a lot of people disagree). Frankly, I am not sure why places such as ED do not have more 5 - 10 story builings.

3) There should be a tax break for renovating properties for residential purposes. There are a lot of houses that are vacent at the moment because they are in significant disrepair. Many of these properties could be made more affordable if the capital required upfront was not such a burden. Also, renovating over the long term will boost quality and stock of housing in London.

4) Key worker schemes aren't affordable for key workers, and more should be done to help make sure that key workers are able to live in the city. I have quite a few friends who would be considered "key workers" but have zero chance of living in zone 1 and 2 because of prices.

[Otta]

sedm Wrote:

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> If you are desperate to stay in the area because

> you have family here there are actually plenty of

> affordable options just outside but still nearby

> East Dulwich, particularly if you go ex-council...

Agreed

PokerTime Wrote:

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> If you look at the prices of those properties you

> are still seeing around 400k for a three bedroomed

> flat/property, with annual service charges on top.

> How is that affordable to a small family on below

> average wage?

I'm from ED, and we wanted to be reasonably close because my parents live in ED and help us with childcare. So moving further afield where we may have gotten 3 bedrooms was not an option, instead we've bought a 2 bed ex council flat in Penge for ?210k. We have 2 small kids who will have to share a bedroom possibly throughout their teens depending on how things pan out for us.

Of course I'd prefer 3 beds, of course I'd prefer to be able to buy in the area I grew up in (actually given the choice I'd rather own a nice house in Sydenham than ED, but that's just me. I love Sydenham), but reality is reality and you either have to make some pretty big concessions and dive in to this crazy market with fingers tightly crossed, or you stay away from it and moan about the house prices in the area you most like.

Things are crazy / crap / scary, but none of us can do a damned thing about it quite frankly.

[Otta]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> It's the middle earners on say 35-40K a year who

> are starting to struggle to buy anything in London - at all.

Yep, that's me right there in the middle of that braket.

My wife was telling the other day that she was chatting to one of the consultants at work (she works at Thommy's - she's a lowly sectratary 2 days a week by the way) and was surprised to hear that he rents a one bed tiny flat in one of the less desireable areas of North London. He apparently laughed when she said she'd assumed he'd own a nice apartment.

[Otta]

Though for all we know he could be paying half his salary to an ex wife and 3 kids somewhere, we were just assuming that his salary is all his.

[Jeremy]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> That isn't a middle-earner Jeremy, surely?

>

> That would be a high-earner in a good job for most people

Pretty average income for London, I believe.

[StraferJack]

hmmm - I'd be suspicious of that

[Cyclemonkey]

Average income in London is around ?35K a year but it is distorted a lot by some very high earners.

40k is still a decent middle to upper income for a lot of people. Also don't forget many professionals in their twenties and thirties have been paying back thousands of pounds in student loans since the late 1990s. There is at least 18k i had to pay back that would have been saved for a deposit if i was only 5 years older.

[StraferJack]

Average and median mean just that - both will be skewed by some of the really big earners in London

How many of the whatever million people in London are on that 40k ish figure?

[Jeremy]

I don't know. But that's not really my point. You were suggesting that even high earners (working in medicine or finance) couldn't afford to buy a place round these parts... I am saying that I don't think things are yet quite that dire.

[StraferJack]

well depends on where on teh ladder in the orgs they are

A regular doctor on NHS wards or someone not senior or in trading in the city isn't going to be on too much more than the 40k ish mark are they?

[nxjen]

"...he rents a one bed tiny flat in one of the less desireable areas of North London..."

Could be wife and kids live in large house outside of London while he commutes / lives in bedsit five days a week. A lot of the highly paid guys I used to work with did this.

[miga]

.

[Otta]

No my wife says he's single. No idea if there is an ex. He just said that simply he couldn't afford to buy a place even on his wages.

I guess even if you're earning ?80k, if you've not saved a deposit you're still buggered.

[StraferJack]

if you were on 80k and saving half of that a year for a deposit, prices are still outstripping your savings

[miga]

.

[Jeremy]

miga Wrote:

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> I think StraferJack's example was East Dulwich, where an average 3 bed

> terrace costs >?800k.

I don't remember him specifying a victorian terrace

[StraferJack]

You are correct Jeremy ? I didn?t specify

However, if (theoretical!!) I?m earning 80k a year, with the pressure and time commitments that go with that?

And I?m saving 40k a year only to see prices outsrip my savings

Am I really thinking a small leasehold flat in SE22 is the height of my aspiration?

Am I really the only one who can afford to buy a small flat in SE22 ? I have to jump through ALL those hoops and that?s my reward?

And if I was on 80k a year I?m a lucky one compared to most of the people around me ? what are THEY doing?

Sounds like something wrong to me