Sleep Deprivation Desperation

[Penguins]

Hello,

I'm posting this in the desperate hope that someone may know someone who can help. We have just had our second child, a girl who is now 14 weeks old. My toddler, a boy, 2.5 years, is having an extreme reaction which is manifesting itself in severe separation anxiety at night. For two months he has begun resisting going to bed and waking up all night. Once I do get him to go down at bedtime he will then wake up several times and need resettling. On a good night he won't wake until 4am but then he will not go back to sleep. Every day now he is awake from 4 or 4.30am. My husband and I go in and resettle him (we never get him up) but he'll never go back to sleep. On a bad night he'll wake up hourly from midnight. I am then up with the baby a further two or three times (on a good night. On a bad night they wake each other up all night long). During the day my son's behaviour is also pretty challenging. He used to have quite a severe biting issue which has resurrected itself again. He is clearly functioning on so much cortisol from sleep deprivation that he is like a little wired ball of energy and/or aggression all day long.

Resettling at night involves going in, either giving him a cuddle or laying him back down in his cot, telling him everything is OK and then leaving the room. Last night he wouldn't go back to sleep unless I was standing in his room. I am trying to avoid sleeping in his room or bringing him into our bed as I feel this would be a very difficult habit to break. Plus the baby is still our room-no doubt something my toddler knows and that contributes to the situation.

My husband and I are in separate rooms while we try to tackle the night time relay but now we're both pretty much awake for either the baby or our son all night. We're at our wits' end and beyond exhausted. We're totally miserable and this is then feeding back into my little boy's anxiety so it's a vicious circle. We have a referral to Sunshine House in Peckham with a paediatrician but this isn't for another month. I should mention that while I do feel my son is at times genuinely distressed and needs reassurance there are times when he is definitely just delaying sleep and playing around. When he's like that I take a firmer approach and tell him to lie back down otherwise I'll shut the bedroom door. This was proving effective but not so much anymore.

We have done all the usual things: seen the GP, the health visitor, consulted a sleep expert and a sleep trainer (the latter agreed with me that to have a stranger in the house overnight doing any kind of sleep training would be wrong while what he needs is his parents). We have the door open, the hall light on and I am making sure I spend time with him on my own in the day. He has a blackout blind, white noise machine etc... We also tried dropping his lunchtime nap but that didn't work and he definitely needs it now that he is awake so much at night. Very kind friends and family are stepping in when possible and my husband and I are trying to take on entire nights alone in order to allow the other one to get some sleep but more often than not we're all still awake anyway (our flat is an echo chamber so every noise is picked up).

I do not know where to turn for help now and we need some as we cannot keep running on empty. Does anyone have an advice on people we could speak to to try to help?

Thanks very much

[KateW]

What a stressful time for you all. I'm so sorry that you're having to deal with all this. How long a nap is he having during the day? I agree that he needs some sleep during the day, but I'm wondering if he is having too much sleep during the day and that is contributing to his night waking?

[EmilyPie]

I don't know whether this would work, and you may decide you don't want to go down this road, but what about bringing your boy in with you on the first wake up. You could talk to him about it, saying you know he's feeling anxious at the moment so for a little while when he wakes up he can come in with you and then when he's feeling better he can go back to sleeping all night in his own bed like a big boy. He might then start feeling more secure and the night waking might resolve itself so he doesn't come in, or not until it is nearly morning. If not you could then make a thing of moving them both into their own room/s once your daughter is past the 6m stage. If you didn't want him actually in your bad you could maybe put a mattress in your room for him. Obviously it isn't the ideal but it might give everyone a bit of sleep and time to regroup. My experience has also been that it is possible to change these things, so he wouldn't have to be in with you forever, but it is obviously hard and much easier to do if you are at least getting some sleep. I really really feel for you all and hope that whatever you decide to do you find something that works soon.

[Convex]

Our son isn't a great sleeper and we went through a phase of sleeping on the couch in his room with him. He doesn't need us to do that any more, so it's not forever, and if it works it might just help you to get enough sleep until this phase settles? The advantage was being able to just go 'shhh shhh I'm here' sometimes rather than having to get out of bed etc.

The couch in his room is very comfortable btw - more like a single bed - I think this is crucial!

It wasn't the same situation, but it might work?

In the meantime, I'm sorry you are suffering, sleep deprivation is awful. I hope things improve soon.

[Saffron]

Penguins Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Resettling at night involves going in, either

> giving him a cuddle or laying him back down in his

> cot, telling him everything is OK and then leaving

> the room. Last night he wouldn't go back to sleep

> unless I was standing in his room. I am trying to

> avoid sleeping in his room or bringing him into

> our bed as I feel this would be a very difficult

> habit to break.

It's a complete myth that co-sleeping in any of its forms, eg having him sleep on a mattress in your room, will become a habit to be broken. Children naturally outgrow co-sleeping type arrangements and eventually want their own space.

By trying to force night time independent sleep and separation before a child is ready, it may be prolonging the agony, compared to just accepting co-sleeping type arrangements. Just my opinion, take it or leave it.

We have a nearly 4 yo 'sleep fighter', with night time separation anxiety. We've been through lots of ups and downs with sleep. The most important thing we've learned is to throw away social expectations, and accept that it doesn't matter where everyone sleeps, so long as everyone does sleep. xxx

[astrid83]

That sounds exhausting! I hope you find a solution soon.

This is a very interesting article about children and night time anxiety:

http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201110/why-young-children-protest-bedtime-evolutionary-mismatch

[snowboarder]

I think, much as I am not really into co-sleeping myself either, I would probably either sleep in his room (if practical) or take him in with one of you (the other with the baby?). And talk to him about it first and tell him clearly what you are going to do, and why....

I'm a bit paranoid about bad habits forming too - but as others have said these things are rarely not reversible as they get bigger and their understanding grows. It really does sound like you've explored all other options.

Good luck....let us know how you get on...

[jollybaby]

Could the person sleeping in the spare room share with your son? We've got a 13 week old and a just 3 year old and this is what we've been doing when the eldest has been waking at night. I've never been particularly keen on the idea of co sleeping but we've opted to take the path of least resistance in this situation. Her wakings are already becoming less frequent.

[jollybaby]

Cross posts Snowboarder!

[Fuschia]

I don't think you have much choice, really. His behaviour us saying so clearly that he need to be with you at night at the moment. If you can meet that need right now, and catch up with your sleep, then when you do decide he needs to go bsck to his room, it will be a lot easier than it is now.

Good luck x

[Inkmaiden]

I'm definitely in the temporary co-sleeping camp on this one. We have had occasional night-time separation anxiety issues with our daughter(3.8 yrs)and putting her mattress on the floor in our room for a few nights always does the trick- no frequent night time wakings or having to stay in the room with her while she goes to sleep. She is then happy to go back to sleeping in her own bed.

When you are chronically sleep-deprived it can feel like you are stuck in a never-ending nightmare. You may be clinging to the only control you feel you have, which is to prevent bad habits forming by not sleeping with him. From your description of your nights, it sounds like your son has already formed some habits which are making life very hard for you all and pushing you to breaking point.

It sounds like you have done so much to try and tackle this, but if all your son really wants is to be close to you, maybe co-sleeping would mean you could all just get some more sleep? He is only little and, as others have said, it really won't last forever.

[fl0wer]

Penguins, very sorry you are having to go through this.

Can still remember the effect of sleep deprivation - during daytime we adults would feel as if the dream world was trying to get us back, from so many interrupted hours. We'd be unsteady on our feet, desperate for an unbroken night of rest.

I think if I could reorganise that time I would accept tips offered in those 'Baby Whisperer' books, about short simple routines and cues to sleeptime repeated whenever the child is put in its cot, (not the same as cues to feed times, N.B.). I would take one side off the child's cot or cotbed, for it to be open alongside my larger bed, to reach across easily without having to get chilly, and to give us all more actual room. One problem with co-sleeping is losing space as a couple together. In sleep we need to turn and move around freely too.

But as commenters wrote above, children do want their own room before long, they mainly need to know you are nearby. Whoever has responsibility for most of the daily childcare needs to get soothed themselves by gentle attention from another adult, partner/friend/mother/masseur. That is the other thing I would change, if I could, - that body chemistry of exhaustion and then the adrenaline-tension which is our natural response to sleep loss.

[KatsuQueen]

Hi, you have my sympathies (for what it's worth). It sounds like a more extreme version of how my little boy behaved when his sister was born too. He would keep himself awake by constantly shouting for us, refusing to nap during the day when he was exhausted and just generally being really difficult during the day.

What helped me was:

Going to bed very early, I,m talking 8:30pm latest so I could get some sleep in the early evening. Although i was breastfeeding, my husband would do a bottle feed about ten pm before he went off to bed. We had to have different coloured muslins to use when bottle feeding as she would refuse the bottle if she could smell breastmilk on the muslins!

My little boy went to nursery for 2 full days a week. I was worried that he would think he was being abandoned but actually he enjoyed it AND would nap at nursery for hours (!!!) which he completely refused to do at home! It was galling that I was paying for him to sleep somewhere, but it meant that we could both have a rest and I was much more patient with him those days when he was at home. It is expensive when you are on maternity leave, but definitely worth it if you can afford it.

And basically just giving up on trying to get him to nap during the day when he was with me. Once when his sister was napping and I was desperately trying to get him to nap, he kept shouting and shouting for me and I was up and down the stairs until I just shouted at him, What do you want?!! And he replied, I want you Mummy. So that was that!

I can't really remember how long this went on for, but things did get better after a few months. Sleep deprivation is awful and I really feel for you. I used to feel like a terrible mother too, especially when he was being difficult and it seemed that all I had been doing that day was shout at him. Ugh.

Sorry for the rather long winded post but hope you can see there is light at the end of the tunnel. My little one is 2 now and although there are still jealousy issues, they manifest in different ways. Still tricky but at least I am getting a proper sleep now. Good luck with it all.

[Beagle]

We have an 18 week old and a 3 year old and I was just not prepared for the difficulty/ hardwork second time round being from a displaced toddler rather than a new baby. We haven't cracked it but we are managing. I do let my daughter into the bed when she comes in looking for me, or if she calls out I get into her bed and then go back to mine when she is settled or I hear the baby. It is like musical beds, but by responding to her perceived need she has become more secure and we see her less and less at night.

It's not perfect by any means. Ido get cross when she wants to chat at 3am or go downstairs to play and warn her to be quiet or she will wake the baby. In her defence, as my husband has pointed out, she has never woken the baby talking. clearly in the initial weeks she wanted to be where we and the baby were.

It is hard, a toddler is still so needy of its mother too that it is hard not to feel split and sometimes resentful and frankly at times as if you are doing everything wrong. There are evenings we are all in tears but these are now few and far between but I have had to learn how to parent two children.

The best of luck.

[Saffron]

We were doing musical beds too after setting up a toddler bed for Little Saff in her own room. And worse still DH is like a zombie at night, incoherent and uncoordinated. So one night I just asked LS where she wanted to sleep, our room or her room. She said our room, and I made an impromptu sleeping mat for her by folding a heavy tog duvet on itself. Now that she knows she can sleep on the mat beside our bed any time, she's actually sleeping more in her own bed by choice. The simplest solutions are often the best. Xx

[embo71]

This will probably not help too much, but hopefully offer some reassurance that you are not alone.

We have two children, 4yrs and 18months, both girls.

Due to childrens sleep issues and my partners back problem, we have separate rooms.

Currently have DD1 (just 4yrs) sleeping on a mat in the same room as my partner, she starts off in her own bed but moves in to his room as soon as I go downstairs at night. She sleeps happily without waking if she is there.

DD2 in a cot in my room. She wakes alot and although I try to 'shhh' her a couple of times, she always ends up in the bed with me by 4am (or so).

It sounds bonkers (just writing this), but it works for us (at the moment). We have realised we can all get some sleep with this arrangement. We hope it wont last forever.

I hope you get some sleep soon. I can truely understand how bad sleep deprivation can be!

Em

x

[Penguins]

I just want to say thank you to everyone for so many supportive and helpful suggestions. It does help to realise others have dealt with similarly tough situations.

X

[jollybaby]

Umm just put 3 year old daughter to bed and she was talking about having a 'sleepover' with me later. . . guess that's me in the spare room tonight then!

Penguins best of luck. It will all work out in the end. Everything just seems so difficult when you're sleep deprived.

[Suze Cook]

Hi. I run a parents consultancy (we have sleep experts who we work with along with all our other expert consultants) but I also have a 20 month old son who started nursery recently and had a massive separation anxiety phase and essentially did what your son described above and my life became very difficult.

I am working flat out on a new business, admittedly I didn't have a new born to deal with but I was struggling none the less. In the end, and it was about 5 weeks that I allowed it to go on for (because I was embarrassed to tell me people I was struggling seeing I run a consultancy dealing in this sort of thing!), I spoke to one of our consultants and her advice was until your child is happier in themselves during the day i.e, less clingy and needy then do whatever you need to do. So I decided to co-sleep with Gabe. This lasted for about 3 weeks and I thought that was it, we had moved in together. But I managed to get some sleep and feel better/stronger and I also felt that he was reassured and felt lots of love/security. Yes, I had a few kicks in the back but at least I slept. When I felt he was past the separation stage and was beginning to call my bluff a little and to be honest it was more about me feeling stronger , I got tough. With my partner's help, we started sleep training on the weekend. By the way, we didn't speak to him at all whilst we were doing it. We reassured him by touch but no words but every consultant has their own technique and whatever you choose, consistency is key. For the first three or four nights, he essentially was up all night, and I mean up all night! And so were we. But we persevered and took it in turns and one of us would wear ear plugs so we could get some rest. It was cracked in about a week and it was amazing to see the transformation in him. He eats more, he's stopped being clingy. He has energy. He is happy. He is sleeping and, we are, and it is such a relief. The other thing some of our experts have advised other parents is to try giving him no sugar before bed time. So no desert with dinner or fruit. I would also start the bedtime routine wind down earlier so that you have a bit more time on your hands to settle him, this will allow you some evening back before no doubt doing a dream feed for your 14 weeks little girl. I wouldn't use white noise or any other sleep association things. He needs to learn to sleep on his own again and he will but if in the meantime, you need to co-sleep with him or your partner sleep in his room, or he has a mattress next to you, then I would just do it because my son is now not pointing to my room anymore, their memories are so small that it's almost he has forgotten that mummy and Gabe moved in together for a while. PS If you can afford it, I would also get a night nurse, even if it just for one or two nights. They can help with your little one but you can also get a night nurse who has experience with toddlers and they will help you a little with them too, only if you want it though. Good luck. I know you have more on your plate than me but you will get through this x

[canela]

another vote for co-sleeping to get through it. life is just too hard when you are sleep deprived. just do it, and enjoy it as a special time together. when the time is right, you can go back to separate rooms.