Racism and homophobia - where we are in 2008

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Well I can honestly say that I have never lifted a finger to anyone.

Had 2 fights,both within 2/3 weeks of each other in 1964,a mere 44 years ago, in the same place, i.e.St.Peters Park,Liverpool Grove,Walworth(sigh! the great memories of my roots)...they both lasted one punch(Tony Pickering and Billy Furze(R.I.P) if you must know) and they both ended up with me rolling around and clutching my stomach on the floor.:))

Thus endeth a promising(NOT!) fighting career...(tu)

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Sorry to digress but what was this thread originally about please(?)

[Huguenot]

Slow to respond, other side of the world an' all that.

Well put SMG. MR, total sympathy. Points taken both..... but what a couple of inconsequential examples.

Women didn't get the vote because of Pankhurst and horse races. They got it because they weren't prepared to work in arms factories without it. The cotton pickers didn't get emancipation because America got liberal, they got it because the Amercian Dream doesn't work when the means to production is on a go-slow.

[KalamityKel]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Does this count as abuse?

> I asked my lodger(who had got hold of the remote)

> to please turn the sound down for a moment as I

> was going to use the phone "for a few seconds".I

> smiled as I said it and no-one could question the

> manner or attitude that I said those words.

> Those are EXACTLY the words I used,as well.

> With that she threw my Sky Remote at my face and

> caught me(I'm not lying) a half inch below my

> eye.I dread to think the damage that could have

> done to me.

> 2 days later we visited her big Sister who was

> returning to the rest of their Family in

> Kingston,Jamaica.

> My "friend" was the personification of the

> sweetest Girl that you could wish to meet! Even

> her voice was much softer.

> Just a quick question..if I had thrown the remote

> at her face,missing her eye by a half-inch would

> anything have come of it,I wonder?

Amazing how your "lodger" turned into your "friend"...

[SeanMacGabhann]

Good morning/afternoon Huguenot!

Again, true as far as it goes. Apartheid in South Africa didn't end because Jerry Dammers wasn't "gonna play Sun Cit-tay" either.... but in all cases the groundwork had been done. Most could have been refuted if the years previously hadn't been filled with the relevant demands and growing public opinion.

It's why whenever an argument about the environment is raised and the point "what we the little guy do is of no consequence - it's only when big business and government do something will there be any real impact" - which is of course true, but it's only when forced by "the little guy" do the big battle-ships slowly turn circle. If the little guy hadn't done his bit, however ineffective, then the behemoths would never even need to think about changing course

[Brendan]

Well (simplistically) apartheid in South Africa ended when the unchallengeable hold on power that the National Party, who instigated the policy of apartheid, came to an end.

This ended mainly because of the fall of the Soviet Union. America no longer needed to control the government of the most powerful country in a region that was otherwise predominately Soviet influenced and coordinated. So they pulled their backing from the National Party and only then did public opinion take its course. So unfortunately it was, as most things are, for reasons of political power rather than humanitarianism.

To be honest though I don?t think anyone ever really gave a toss about what anybody in Britain thought.

Unless they were pursuing future careers as Guardian contributors.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

KalamityKel Wrote:

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

> I asked my lodger(who had got hold of the

> remote)....

> > My "friend" was the personification of the

> > sweetest Girl that you could wish to meet!

Amazing how your "lodger" turned into your

> "friend"...

No comment about the deed itself?

Your only comment is that my Lodger was also a friend?..Are the two mutually exclusive?

[SteveT]

Racism and homophobia

I'm agin it.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Brendan Wrote:

Well (simplistically) apartheid in South Africa

> ended ....

To be honest though I don?t think anyone ever really gave a toss about what anybody in Britain thought.

So all those thousands of hours protesting outside South Africa House in Trafalgar Square during the 1970's where in vain?

Read an interesting internet debate 2 years ago on the most prominent UK Black Forum when 2 Moderators asked "Why was it nearly always only "Whites" that bothered to protest!"

The answers were "many and varied" to say the least!::o

[Brendan]

Because it was mostly white kids who were into The Boomtown Rats.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

That's why protests never happen on a Monday.

[SeanMacGabhann]

The recent reports about the abuse Sol Campbell received from Spurs fans at Portsmouth has been illuminating - not because it's news (it's being going on for ever) but because fans who claim to not be racist ("we cheered Defoe - how can we be racist?") use very specific racist and homophobic references to deride someonem, which is what this thread is about.

They could (if they are still childishly upset about his defection 7 feckin years ago!!!) call him a traitor, disloyal, etc but instead they - in front of children, and on a weekly basis - make KKK references and HIV references as a way of calling someone, to use Jame's term, "shit"

Does no-one think that at least some of those kids will absorb the notion that maybe black peolpe and gay people deserve everything they get? Despite protestations to the contrary I don't think the adults are that clear...

Sol Campbell and some fans reactions

[Jeremy]

Don't know much about football, so am not really aware of the background behind SMG's post...

but...

Was anyone ever really "into" The Boomtown Rats??

[SeanMacGabhann]

over to the music thread with this one surely??

(Some decent singles and mostly dreadful albums. Despite Tony Visconti's involvement)

As for the Sol Campbell reference - when Spurs fans sing (to the tune of Lord of the Dance) :

Sol, Sol, wherever you may be,

Not long now til lunacy,

And we couldn't give a f***,

When you're hanging from a tree,

Judas **** with HIV.

----------------------------

Does that underline James' point? Or is it acceptable football/social banter? Should it not be challenged?

[Ted Max]

Tiptoes into thread to say, isn't the "hanging from the tree" line, which you presumably take to be the reference to KKK lynchings, in fact a reference to Judas?

Not that it makes it any less despicable, of course.

[SeanMacGabhann]

well it depends on which gospel youread and how you interpret them - I would almost be impressed if people chanting the above had read the lines:

"Now this man purchased a field with the

reward of iniquity; and falling headlong,

he burst asunder in the midst, and all

his bowels gushed out.

19 And it was known unto all the dwellers

at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is

called in their proper tongue, Aceldama,

that is to say, The field of blood.

"

and surmised - yep, definitely hanging. I would argue that at least the younger members of the crowd satisfy themselves that it's what happens to uppity folk in the wrong part of town...

But let's say they are referring to Judas - hey, it proves James' point! racism = less acceptable than homophobia! ;-)

[Ted Max]

I think you are right, and right again. But also think most people would think they knew Judas hung himself without having read the Gospels.

Anyway, the chants are horrible. Speculating on the exact nature of their horribleness is rather pointless (even though I started it, I know).

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

That's anti-semetism rather than racism.

On a serious note, the saddest thing I ever witnessed was about 20 years ago on the terraces when the more moronic element of fans made 'monkey noises' whenever a particular opposition player had the ball. The irony was, one of our best players at the time was a young black chap; even more poignant was that a lad (about 12) of mixed race heritage was joining in the chanting.

[SeanMacGabhann]

And then there is FIFA/UEFA cracking down on racism - hard!!! what was the fine for the monkey noises in from Croatia fans against Heskey the other week? 15k or something - pathetic

[mockney piers]

Biblical metaphors in a football chant, impressive frankly, disregarding the racist and distasteful overtones.

Plus I'm sure anyone singing that isn't saying "racist, me? no guv", but quite content in their overt racism.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Worse than that,I'mafraid.:X

When my team played at WBA,they possesed the first ever Black Forward Line= Laurie Cunningham(RIP), Cyrille Regis, Garry Thompson et al..and the fans took boxes of hundreds of bananas that were flung,in unison ontothe pitch near the start.

No, I don't know how they got thru' the turnstiles either!

Seen worse than Mixed-Raced kids joining in.I've actually witnessed several Black fans joining in the nonsense.(6)

[mockney piers]

amazing what people will do in order to be accepted!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7647099.stm

[????]

I thought Bruce Springsteen wasn't "Gonna play Sun City"? ...although I agree Jerry Dammers had little effect in "freeing Nelson Mandelaaaaaaaaa"

[Keef]

Have to admit that I would have taken that as a referrence to Judas, but it's still nasty whichever way you look at it.

[????]

Tottenham fans being anti-semetic, how bloody typical!

*scratches head and wonders if poeple aren't being a bit too deconstructive about a deeply unpleasant song which is, if guilty of any non-PC crime, is midley homophobic?