Man on push bike knocked on door

[Jeremy]

Penguin, I think you've slightly missed the point here. Nobody was warning anybody to be wary of young black men on bikes (I don't think I would defend something like that). The OP was trying to find out if someone matching this description had done the same thing in the same area on the same night.

If someone finds a person suspicious because of their ethnicity then you'd be right to pull them up on it, but it's a bit of a leap to accuse someone of this.

[Penguin68]

I am not accusing someone of this specifically - it is about interpretation - some are interpreting the OP's initial response as being triggered by the identifier, others as being triggered by the behaviour. I obviously do not know (and if the OP was being unconsciously racist, neither would the OP).

I very much doubt that this was a consciously racist report (test - 'if it had been someone with different identifiers, I know I wouldn't have thought it worth reporting') - but we now understand the possibility of not being aware of one's own biases as biases.

The fact that the OP asked if others had seen this behaviour is surely about confirming (or not) suspicions, not about having them in the first place.

[NB This is entirely without prejudice about whether these suspicions were justified or not]

[Earl Aelfheah]

Guess it depends whether you would see racism in the following post:

Evening all - just had a white male on bike knock on our front door. All lights were off. By the time my partner got to the door, the man had started the cycle away from the house and shouted back 'wrong house'. Anyone else had a knock close to Colwell this eve?

[Jeremy]

Fair summary Penguin. For me it just boils down to - you weren't there, you don't know the OP. You don't know.

[Penguin68]

Guess it depends whether you would see racism in the following post:

Evening all - just had a white male on bike knock on our front door. All lights were off. By the time my partner got to the door, the man had started the cycle away from the house and shouted back 'wrong house'. Anyone else had a knock close to Colwell this eve?

My point wasn't whether that post would have seemed racist, but whether that event would have stimulated a post at all.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I agree with Jeremy.

[Clareann]

About 3 weeks ago I had a young man fitting the description come into my drive right behind me and ask "if he could ask me a question". This was 11pm on the ED Road. I was startled...I though he was going to rob me and basically told him to leave me alone. He continued to follow me right up to my door and asked if I had seen a guy who looks like him living there. I asked again for him to leave me alone and he cycled away. It was bizarre.

Yesterday I had a similar experience on Upland road - a guy stopped me to ask if he could ask me a question. I said no and he got really aggressive calling me all the names under the sun. Has this happened to anyone else?

[JDB]

It happens to me occassionally on busy bustling streets by people wearing charity bibs and carrying clipboards but I wouldn't classify Upland Road as a busy street, I don't get abused when I deny them my time and they are not normally on bikes.

Is it just me or does anyone else find it difficult to identify/understand a motive for the person's behaviour?! Burglary/mugging?! Another thing to consider here is mental illness and there are certainly plenty of people walking the streets with behavioural issues which we might consider, and certainly appear to be, threatening but are attributes of this person's condition.

[Prunella_Gatsby]

Yes these young male hoodie type characters (black or white) are a menace to society.

I'm forever having altercations with one or another on the street, as i don't give way to horrid behaviour. I am disabled with a walking stick and an older lady, let me tell you - they give way!

The young girls following them are no better, they seem to think being in a 'gang' is a badge of honour - that is until they become victims of abuse themselves from these criminal male hoodlums.

Do not be afraid, treat them with the same distain they treat society with.

[uncleglen]

It's 'disdain' btw

[Prunella_Gatsby]

Thankyou 'Uncleglen' for pointing out that typing error... Is that the only thing you can manage to comment on?

[uncleglen]

PG-I thought your post was a bit of sarcasm actually- sweeping generalisations and all that...

[Prunella_Gatsby]

Well you need to read my post carefully then, it was a pointed example of bad and menacing behaviour amongst particular sections of our society....

[charlesfare]

Fuck off Prunella

[scareyt]

charlesfare, I find it bizarre that you are so keen to raise suspicions of racism but are happy to throw in stupid misogynistic stereotypes like "pearl-clutching Hyacinth Bucket types" and go on to make a comment that is just EDF-speak for "B***s get what you deserve".

Racism is socially unacceptable but sexism is fine????

If women are scared of crime it's because they have good reason to be. And I am fully aware that structural racism exists and that racism can exist where none was intended but I don't think the OP was an example of that - it wasn't "this happened and it was scary because he was black" it was "this happened and it was scary because it was an odd thing for a person to have done late at night."

[charlesfare]

scareyt Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> charlesfare, I find it bizarre that you are so

> keen to raise suspicions of racism but are happy

> to throw in stupid misogynistic stereotypes like

> "pearl-clutching Hyacinth Bucket types" and go on

> to make a comment that is just EDF-speak for

> "B***s get what you deserve".

>

> Racism is socially unacceptable but sexism is

> fine????

>

> If women are scared of crime it's because they

> have good reason to be. And I am fully aware that

> structural racism exists and that racism can exist

> where none was intended but I don't think the OP

> was an example of that - it wasn't "this happened

> and it was scary because he was black" it was

> "this happened and it was scary because it was an

> odd thing for a person to have done late at

> night."

The hyacinth bucket comment was a reference to that character's curtain twitching, hoity toity keeping up with the jonse's nature that's exhibited by a lot of the posters here. Nothing to do with her being a woman. I never said "bitches get what you deserve" though, that's just you putting words in my mouth. In fact I never once mentioned anything relating to anyone's gender and I have no idea whether the original poster was a woman or a man.

And seeing as Prunella was the person who wrote the original(now deleted) racist comments, I stand by my comment to her and hope she takes a long walk off a short cliff sometime soon.

[scareyt]

But it was a specifically female caricature, as is "pearl-clutching". And you did specifically say that those people in your caricature - ie women fearful of a crime - deserve to be victims of that crime. Which is a very ugly thought.

I didn't see the Prunella comment as it had been deleted before I read the thread. I just wish that all the people who trip over each other in their eagerness to call out racism could lose the collective blind spot that exists about sexism.

[charlesfare]

scareyt Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But it was a specifically female caricature, as is

> "pearl-clutching". And you did specifically say

> that those people in your caricature - ie women

> fearful of a crime - deserve to be victims of that

> crime. Which is a very ugly thought.

>

> I didn't see the Prunella comment as it had been

> deleted before I read the thread. I just wish that

> all the people who trip over each other in their

> eagerness to call out racism could lose the

> collective blind spot that exists about sexism.

Sexism is just as abhorrent a racism. Comparing someone to Hyacinth Bucket isn't sexist. Assuming that a black guy who knocked on the wrong door by accident *must* be up to no good is. People who think like that deserve to be robbed several times over as far as I'm concerned. Go away.

[Loz]

charlesfare Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Assuming that a black guy who knocked on the wrong door by

> accident *must* be up to no good is.

Once again, you are wilfully misrepresenting the OP. He/she never said the person "must" be up to no good. They just found it suspicious.

Just stop it. It's childish.

[edcam]

Did Patricia Routledge try and rob someone? Confused.....

[scareyt]

charlesfare Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>Sexism is just as abhorrent a racism. Comparing someone to Hyacinth Bucket isn't sexist. Assuming that a black guy who >knocked on the wrong door by accident *must* be up to no good is. People who think like that deserve to be robbed >several times over as far as I'm concerned. Go away.

Of course it's sexist - Hyacinth Bucket is a sexist and very dated stereotype. She doesn't exist. That programme would never get made now because people would realise that it's nothing but a stupid one-dimensional mockery of a female stereotype. By drawing on that sexist stereotype and using it to justify your aggressive thoughts, you are indeed being abhorrently sexist.

But the phrase that really enraged me was "pearl-clutching" which you used twice. This again, is not a real thing that real people do. It's something that actresses used to do to portray a stereotype about women, one which mocks and belittles their fears. And one which you have accepted as reality and then projected onto people commenting on this post. Think about it. If an actual person was actually clutching at the necklace they were wearing in real life, it would only be because they were terrified that someone was about to rip it from their neck. Do I need to list all the times that I and other women I know have been attacked / assaulted / threatened / robbed by men in order for you to understand how obnoxious it is to use this phrase as an insult and to say that "those people" deserve to be burgled?

Think harder before you employ stereotypes like this next time. Especially when you are in the middle of trying to make yourself look like a stand-up guy by calling out racism.

[charlesfare]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> charlesfare Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Assuming that a black guy who knocked on the

> wrong door by

> > accident *must* be up to no good is.

>

> Once again, you are wilfully misrepresenting the

> OP. He/she never said the person "must" be up to

> no good. They just found it suspicious.

>

> Just stop it. It's childish.

As I've said before, what is suspicious about knocking on the wrong house and saying "sorry, wrong number"? Getting directions wrong or misreading a door number is something that's happened to all of us at least once.

[charlesfare]

scareyt Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> charlesfare Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >Sexism is just as abhorrent a racism. Comparing

> someone to Hyacinth Bucket isn't sexist. Assuming

> that a black guy who >knocked on the wrong door by

> accident *must* be up to no good is. People who

> think like that deserve to be robbed >several

> times over as far as I'm concerned. Go away.

>

>

> Of course it's sexist - Hyacinth Bucket is a

> sexist and very dated stereotype. She doesn't

> exist. That programme would never get made now

> because people would realise that it's nothing but

> a stupid one-dimensional mockery of a female

> stereotype. By drawing on that sexist stereotype

> and using it to justify your aggressive thoughts,

> you are indeed being abhorrently sexist.

>

> But the phrase that really enraged me was

> "pearl-clutching" which you used twice. This

> again, is not a real thing that real people do.

> It's something that actresses used to do to

> portray a stereotype about women, one which mocks

> and belittles their fears. And one which you have

> accepted as reality and then projected onto people

> commenting on this post. Think about it. If an

> actual person was actually clutching at the

> necklace they were wearing in real life, it would

> only be because they were terrified that someone

> was about to rip it from their neck. Do I need to

> list all the times that I and other women I know

> have been attacked / assaulted / threatened /

> robbed by men in order for you to understand how

> obnoxious it is to use this phrase as an insult

> and to say that "those people" deserve to be

> burgled?

>

> Think harder before you employ stereotypes like

> this next time. Especially when you are in the

> middle of trying to make yourself look like a

> stand-up guy by calling out racism.

I get where you're coming from, but pearl clutching is just a figure of speech in this context, I'm not talking about women being assaulted (no one was until you mentioned it).I'm aware of the realities regarding women and assault but it wasn't my intention to make light of that. I apologise for the wrong choice of words, but let's not switch goal posts here.

Having said that, the traits of snobbery, paranoia and a fear/disdain of anyone different present in a character like Hyacinth Bucket are not inherently female traits. It's a middle class stereotype, not a sexist one. And to be frank, you don't have to hang around here too long to see that those traits do exist among the denizens of EDF, regardless of how much people would like to deny it or play it off as neighbourly concern. This thread was made around the same time some feckless busybody had a thread complaining about the declining state of people's front gardens and moaning about East Dulwich devolving in to a "slum" because of it, which is exactly the kind of thing Hyancinth Bucket would blather on about.

I'm not trying to make myself look like a "stand up guy" either. I just happen to be one of many people living in this area who fit the description of "black youth on a push-bike" and take umbrage with the idea that someone of my appearance simply knocking on a door is enough to arouse suspicion and a 101 call. Do *I* have to list the times that *I* and other black men have been treated like criminals, stopped and searched and singled out simply for being somewhere people thought we didn't belong in order for *you* to see why a thread like this might piss me off?

The OP wasn't threatened or assaulted, they got spooked because they saw someone they thought didn't belong briefly darken their doorstep. I will mock and belittle the petty and sheltered fears of people who think like that as much as I damn well please.

[mako]

Anyone could make a mistake knocking on the wrong door. However by posting the op others in the atea could be aware and if a second event occurred then it becomes more suspicious. If its an innocent mistake then no harm is done by the post.

As for charles someone who openly feels it appropraite to mock and belittle others fears and to say that anyone deserves to be robbed loses any credibility.

[scareyt]

Thank you for apologising and for explaining where you're coming from. I get that being stopped and searched in public, or followed round a shop by security guards, for no reason other than skin colour, happens to young black men all the time and is a terrible and enraging injustice.

I still think that you've made an invalid assumption that racism was definitely involved in this case and that the behaviour of the person definitely wasn't suspicious, which you can't know because you weren't there. If the title of the thread had been "Black man on push bike knocked on door" I think you could safely make the assumption that underlying racism was what triggered the fear. As it stands, it just sounds like a simple part of the description given following a suspicious encounter with a strange man in case anyone else had the same thing happen to them. Part of being a woman is living with the knowledge, born of experience, that any encounter with a stranger in a public place can turn into a threat very quickly. If something that feels wrong happens in or near your home, where you are supposed to be able to feel safe, it's even more scary. Every woman alive has experienced the sequence of unsolicited contact from a man rapidly turning into aggression and / or violence and it does tend to make a person fearful. That's the context. You develop a fine-tuned instinct for behaviour that isn't right and could turn into a threat, and that's what the OP sounds like to me.

Being fearful is not something to be laughed at. Becoming fearful, being robbed of the ability to be confident and carefree in your day-to-day life, is the very worst part of being a victim of crime.

The entire front gardens thread looks like pointless trolling / wittering to me. I also think Prunella is a (male) troll. There is something inauthentic about the level of outrage expressed and some of the language & phrases used - her comments read like an outraged elderly woman, a Hyacinth Bucket if you like, as imagined by a man drawing on lazy female stereotypes, in order to start arguments.