Dulwich Park middle class?

[Louisa]

PT I'm not arguing that we should group anyone against anyone else. What I'm relaying to you, as you well know, is that some folk feel the area has become less diverse. Now you can measure diversity on any scale you wish, but the statistics office choose to categorise people in terms of 'ethnicity' on their census, the questions they pose, and if you take that scale to measure diversity in our neighbourhood then the place has become more homogeneous. The 'ethnic minority' (please note the word ethnic as defined by the census people), in our neighbourhood has fallen. The white population has indeed become slightly (very slightly in comparison to the rest of London) more diverse. The obvious conclusion is that the overall ethnic diversity has fallen in a decade. You say ED is not an island? Well it would appear to have become more of an island compared to surrounding neighbourhoods according to statistics. As we know it's not just about ethnic diversity, it's about class diversity, we have no way of measuring this, but the feeling I and many others have is that the area has become wealthier as house prices have risen and the working classes have moved away.

Louisa.

[PokerTime]

Louisa, what people 'feel' has no bearing on fact. People can feel things for lots of reasons, including unfounded prejudices they may hold. You now seem to be suggesting that a diverse white population is less diverse than non-white mix? I personally know asians and chinese and black people who are more British than I am btw, more sold into British culture than I am.

But even with wealth, there is a problem in definition. House prices have risen yes, but so have multiples of what one can borrow (against salary). I don't think the leap in wealth is as big as you think it is. Also most of EDs accomodation is rental.

If anything, the shift is more in terms of professional vs non professional. Remember that Labour classification chart, of A1 through to C (or something like that), that seperates employment types. That's where the shift is (the majority of people in ED work). Of course the shift will reflect property and rental values but again I don't think it's as large a shift as some think. That is where we can argue in socio-economic terms, and there we can argue that this group or that group don't seem to be represented. But even there one has to be careful.

[Penguin68]

Remember that Labour classification chart, of A1 through to C

It is a socio-employment classification chart (now to some extent overtaken by more recent classifications) and used extensively in marketing, inter alia - A, B, C1 C2, D, E. 'E' were the unemployed and (state) pensioners, 'D' manual labourers, 'C2' - white collar semi skilled and other semi skilled, 'C1' white collar skilled and skilled craftsmen, 'B' Managerial and professional, 'A' Higher managerial and senior professional (This by the way is a gross oversimplification).

One of the problems is that households were classed by 'current head of household' status. In many indian sub-continent households where there was multi-generational living the head of household was often the retired grandfather, without an occupational pension - so households (and all living in them) where doctors and lawyers were the actual breadwinners were being classed as 'E' by researchers. This has now been addressed.

I would suspect that over the last 30 years e.g. C1 and C2 households have been gradually replaced by B and A, with a dissapearance of D's - save those residual who have not moved out of the area in that time. Those moving in are most likely now to be A or B, with a leavening of CI. Outside social housing most C2s, Ds and Es wanting to live in ED would be hard pressed to meet the local property premiums.

Unlike the 'upper, middle, working' class classifications these are based on current occupation/ status, not family history or aspirations.

[Otta]

PokerTime Wrote:

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> It might suprise you to learn Louisa that the

> Irish have a culture of their own

I'm sorry, but the Irish people I know below about 50 years old may enjoy club soda and a pack of Tayto, but it's hardly as if they're some sub culture.

[grabot]

I suspect that any attempt to define class is fruitless. The whole concept is a subset of humanity's tendency to group and seize power. I think, as someone alluded to earlier in this post, if you are in the "right" class you are more likely to be successful at work and probably socially too. The parameters constantly shift to maintain exclusivity and shut out those that can't be bothered to play the game. So, confusingly it seems that left wing political views now represent a strong middle class signifier. I think that if you have been brought up playing the game it is effortless, if not exhausting. Hence the antagonism of those that cannot. I have to admit to being in the latter category. However, like DulwichFox I believe that forming meaningful connections is the only thing that really matters.