Bull

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

You forgot to add MP looking like a lovely senorita.

[SeanMacGabhann]

oh if only I could find flickr at work! Good call PGC - anybody care to post that particular link?

[Brendan]

Leave MP alone. He?s still trying to get over that radio presenter slipping his granddaughter one.

[wee quinnie]

Brendan Wrote:

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> I?m inclined to agree with David though that if

> evils need to be corrected in this world

> bullfighting comes in very low on the list

Surely the issue here is not about priorities, but whether or not it is cruel?

[Moos]

Exactly what Wee Quinnie said!

If someone comes on the Forum and asks us for our opinions on a particular topic, then what is the value in debating the value of debating the particular topic? Serious danger of disappearing up our (yawn) liberal pampered behinds.

[*Bob*]

If a man dressed like the front window of a curtain shop wants to stick sharp things into an animal until it dies - to the sounds of a baying crowd - who are we to argue?

[Brendan]

Meh, fuk?em they?re only a cows.

[mockney piers]

Generally, if you ask a Spaniard what they think about all those British campaigns to ban bullfighting, even the ones that dislike bullfighting (and there are many) will say something to the effect of FOAMYOB.

Or in Spanish ?Vete la mierda!

[Brendan]

What's a foam yob?

[DaveR]

"Surely the issue here is not about priorities, but whether or not it is cruel?"

Lots of things are cruel. Most people seem to be concerned about whether it may be 'justifiable' cruelty i.e. like boiling a lobster for food, and also whether it is 'disproportionate' cruelty i.e. more cruel than it needs to be. In that context, using (for example) cruelty to children as an absolute comparate (i.e. never justifiable and always disproportionate) is understandable.

Bullfighting is one of those things (like foxhunting) that if it had never happpened before, and I was asked whether it should start now, I would say no. But if the question is "should it be stopped?", it's impossible to ignore the cultural context; in Spain it is regarded by a significant number of people as a key part of the national artistic identity.

[*Bob*]

The Spanish are ANIMALS.

Thank God for the cultural and civilising influence of ex-Brits now living in Spain.

[Brendan]

Meh, fukem they?re only Spanish.

[mockney piers]

I get the feeling we're not helping Declan's son much ;-)

Here's about a minute's footage of Enrique Ponce who I've seen about 3 times.

There is blood, but no killing, say what you want about the cruelty, but the guy has balls, I've seen those bulls up close and they scared the bejeezus out of me.

THough thanks to the civilising influence that Bob pointed out, soon the Bullrings will have sand on the ground to cover up the blood spilled in the deeply ritualised spectator sport of 'Post Bingo/12 pints fighting', a noble sport indeed.

Armed only with a special pool cue and a red handkerchief on their head the Bingoreador steps out into the ring....

[lozzyloz]

Had a look at that footage. He looks very majestic and pleased with himself although the bull looks pretty pissed off.

I can do a similar trick with a length of knitting wool and a kitten although I've not been tempted yet to end it with a poke in the eye with a size 9 crochet hook. Perhaps I should call myself Lozzyloz Ponce. Has a certain ring dontcha think?

[david_carnell]

Moos Wrote:

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> David, your main argument appears to be that bull

> fighting is OK because cruelty to children is

> worse.

>

> Stick to the chuffing point.

>

> And your ancillary argument is a rather weedy

> "define torture". The point of cooking shellfish

> is so that they are cooked and can be eaten. It

> takes a couple of minutes. The point of killing

> bulls is for its own sake, it is a 'competition'

> with a pre-defined result. It can take quite a

> long time, and whether or not it's torture it is

> inflicting pain and prolonged suffering for

> entertainment*. This is what we have been asked

> to opine upon.

>

> Whether or not little old ladies or hulking young

> toffs should give their cheques to donkey

> sanctuaries or to the NSPCC is just so much guff

> in this particular discussion.

>

> *I guess that gives you a fairly good

> understanding of my viewpoint...

Ok, now just hold on a mo. Firstly, I made it perfectly clear that my arguments had flaws and were not suitable for academic discourse. They were merely my (not so) humble opinions on the matter.

Secondly, you know full well that even with the above proviso my main argument was not that "it's ok to torture bulls because child abuse is worse" - you're being deliberately obtuse.

I do not take pleasure in seeing animals harmed. I don't laugh manically whilst throwing bags of kittens into flooded mineshafts. I can just think of things I'd rather wring my hands over.

Whilst the bull is going to die one way or another the result is not quite "pre-determined" - otherwise deaths of matadors would not occur. They do.

And my ancillary points are not guff. They highlight the essence of my feeling on the matter in hand. Which is, quite frankly, meh. I don't care. At all. It's not my idea of a fun day out for the family but I'm not getting into a moral pickle over it. I couldn't give a stuff about a few cows to be honest. And before you run off and reduce this argument to the absurd and starting lobbing moralistic artillery in my direction with stuff about dog fighting or bear baiting, stop. I know. But I still don't care.

At all.

[*Bob*]

mockney piers Wrote:

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> Here's about a minute's footage of Enrique Ponce

> who I've seen about 3 times.

> There is blood, but no killing, say what you want

> about the cruelty, but the guy has balls, I've

> seen those bulls up close and they scared the

> bejeezus out of me.

To be honest I think it looks kind-of shabby and utterly ridiculous.

But I'm willing to concede that the wonky youtube footage might not effectively convey the majesty and atmosphere of the occasion.

[mockney piers]

The whole thing is pretty ridiculous, we're not talking about black & white here, this isn't homeopathy, it's culture.

I'm not trying to explain why a cross dresser in spray on gold lame with a sock down his pants going out and killing a large farm animal when he could just go to the supermarket and buy some sirloin makes sense. Of course it doesn't.

Tell me why 2 sets of blokes kicking a leather ball up and down a field for 90 minutes arouses such ridiculous passion (yeah *bob* I know already) and weird personal identification, it doesn't bear much analysis, yet it does these things.

I can't explain why I feel so very Spanish at the Plaza de Toros de la Maestranza in Sevilla, but I do. I love the whole pomp and ceremony, and the feel of the hot stone under you buttocks, and the sweltering at 40 degrees under the evening sun and the taste of the red wine from the leather wine squirty thingy, even though I know at the back of my mind it's all utterly absurd and yes cruel!

Is there anything here that makes people feel so very English? Tea and scones, a game of cricket at a village green on a

summer's day perhaps? Noone ever said the Spaniards were civilised, hugely cultured maybe, but civilised, not so much.

DaveR hits the nail on the head (right through the Bulls frontal lobe...oh sorry), which is why this is culture and LozzyLoz is being reported to the RSPCA should he give in to his urges to kill kittens with a knitting needle.

[Brendan]

Like I said before. Blame the Romans.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Infamy!

[david_carnell]

Yeah, what have the ever done for us?

[Brendan]

Designer stubble and poncy sunglasses?

[*Bob*]

As I say, Mocqueney

*Bob* Wrote:

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.. I'm willing to concede that the wonky youtube

> footage might not effectively convey the majesty

> and atmosphere of the occasion.

And that's I'm sure it's all about. Atmosphere. Occasion. Spectacle.

[david_carnell]

I'm just imagining all this off-topic guff being put in an A-Level essay.

Essentially it's what I did for two years.....

.....in retrospect, that probably explains a lot.

[mockney piers]

Don't worry Bob, I was simultaneously arguing with you while backing up your point.

Double think or something.

Thinking about it my room 101 would probably involve a matador's outfit. I'm much better looking in fishnet tights!!

[Brendan]

On a personal level I wouldn?t want to go to one. I don?t have the stomach for that sort of thing.