DHFC planning consultation - for residents of Abbotswood Road and St Francis estate

[Moneykelly]

Seeing as though Dulwich Hamlet Football Club have been their usual slack selves with regards to local community engagement I thought I'd make local residents aware that there is a planning application meeting this weekend which I found on another thread. Details are below - I'd strongly recommend anyone who lives nearby attends as the plans could obviously have a huge impact on the area.

The first stage of consultation on a proposed development of the stadium and surrounding area will take place on Saturday 19th July

Hadley Property Group have released the following information regarding the future of the club and stadium and the contents of the newsletter is below. All fans, along with the local community, are welcome to attend and add their comments.

Welcome to our first community newsletter. As you may know Dulwich Hamlet FC has been in financial difficulties for a number of years. Hadley Property Group has recently acquired an interest in the site and Club and we have spent the past 6 months putting both its football and business operations on a more sustainable financial footing so that the Club has a future at Champion Hill. However as currently configured the facilities cannot continue to support the Club and a change in the layout and footprint of the buildings is needed. There is an opportunity to provide a new stadium and to invest in the open space located around the stadium. We have engaged the architects Farrells who are leaders in the field of masterplanning to work with all who have an interest in the area, including Club supporters, local residents and businesses, sports and recreation groups and Southwark Council. The first stage will be a consultation event to give everyone an opportunity to respond to our intial ideas for the future of the area based on the opportunities and constraints.This will take a place on Saturday 19th of July 2014 at Dulwich Hamlet Football Club. We hope that you are able to attend, but if this is not possible please feel free to contact us at [email protected].

Yours sincerely, Hadley Property Group

[first mate]

Well if there is a large site with open land why not build a school?

[misstangsmile]

more apartments , more difficult to get a school place.

build a school is a good idea!

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[Moneykelly]

Meeting is between 10am and 3pm by the way at the clubs premises

[eastdulwichhenry]

"The first stage will be a consultation event to give everyone an opportunity to respond to our initial ideas for the future of the area based on the opportunities and constraints."

Well that's nice, but I would feel like I had even more of an opportunity if they'd actually published what those initial ideas are...

The same newsletter is printed on a lamppost near the ground actually, and ominously it features a picture of the metropolitan open land behind the stadium, which suggests they're likely to bring back up the proposal to relocate the stadium there. I hope the council and the national planning inspectorate are able to stand up to their pressure, especially given the inadvisability of increasing the homes to services ratio yet further in the area, but somehow I fear the worst here...

[taper]

I suggest we all wait to see the initial plans first. Seems to me there's a possibility here of a significant three way benefit for the area: more houses, desparately needed in London and our part of it; a secure future for the football club, the beating cultural and spiritual heart of East Dulwich ; and the potential to develop Greendales into a community open space, while enhancing its contribution to local biodiversity.

I undersrtand the qualms about pressure on local services, and clearly any housing development needs to be proportionate. The fetishisation of Greendale however confuses me. I use the space quite a lot. It has enormous potential. But at present is overgrown, unlovely and rarely used by locals. I would not want to see it built upon. But if a new stadium design required some encroachment onto the ugly poor-condition all weather pitch, and there was a quid pro quo to enhance the green space as a genuine space for community use, then that in my eyes would be a positive development. If investment can be levered out of Hadley to develop the space to enhance its utility for locals and wildlife (eg local growing, better bio-diversity, link up with DKH Wood) then this would be a huge boost to the area.

This is where pressure should be brought to bear on Hadley. But my fear is we will get an unthinking lobby to preserve things how they are, losing a huge opportunity.

[eastdulwichhenry]

Taper, for the most part you speak good sense, I'd like to see good use of that Greendale site as well. Although it is frequently used by footballers from around the area, some of whom may not automatically have anywhere else to play, and might otherwise be forced to turn their attention to criminal activity, so it is not altogether a bad thing.

However, your comment about new houses is way off, and I wonder why this is so often repeated by Councillor Barber and others? Are there vast industries or employers in East Dulwich that require all this new housing for their staff? I assume the "housing shortage" is a reference to the need to house more people who work in central London, which is all well and good, but it's not something we *have* to be concerned about immediately in our area, and right now our services simply can't cope with the existing population. Schools are all oversubscribed. Doctor's surgery waiting times are horrendous. Build more of those things first, and then I'll be right on your page about building more houses.

[taper]

It would be a rather novel approach to planning and development to look only at the East Dulwich economy in judging what level of new housing was needed. We all live in London and London needs new houses. There's a huge issue about affordability and about local services. But these can be considered and lobbied for as part of the of the development process. I think anyway the idea that we can't cope with more people is over-stated and can be planned for over the time of this development. GP surgeries are an acute problem with or without this development.

I'd just like it for once if people could view this as an opportunity for the whole area. My first concern is the health of the club. But if this is done right everyone can benefit.

[Alex K]

Plan -- 1) Acquire metropolitan open land. 2) Move stadium there. 3) Build housing with "amenities" at the Dog Kennel Hill end, where stadium and carwash now stand. 4) Pocket much money.

Cut out the intervening steps, and it's: 1), 4) Acquire metropolitan open land and pocket much money.

The new owners of DHFC with their purchase have placed a bet that they can turn a profit. This profit depends on Southwark providing the subsidy of the metropolitan open land (buy as greenfield, sell as housing / flats). I hope that they lose their bet.

[intexasatthe moment]

Building on MOL depends on approval by Sec of State ,Southwark can recommend approval but it's not entirely up to them .

Though I have no figures for how often approval is refused if the LA recommend .

Sadly I think your synopsis is right on the button Alex K .

[milk76]

Alex K, a perfect summation.

Corporate vultures trying to get their hands on any little bit of valuable green space in London. I hope they lose their bet too.

[taper]

Lots of straw men out there today. Shall we see what's proposed before settling on a view?

[first mate]

It is also wise to consider the setting of precedents. Once ML is opened up for use in this way the same could be done elsewhere in the borough.

[Roundabout]

first mate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It is also wise to consider the setting of

> precedents. Once ML is opened up for use in this

> way the same could be done elsewhere in the

> borough.

Where else is there MO/Land ?

[taper]

There's a not entirely clear map here

http://www.london.gov.uk/thelondonplan/images/maps-diagrams/jpg/map-3d-3.jpg

But below on pg 75 is a more detailed map for the area concerned. OS128 is Greendale, including the all weather pitch

http://www.southwark.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/6877/southwark_open_space_strategy_2013

Interesting report all round. There's lots of open land about. But its under utilised (as with Greendale imv).

[Alex K]

Lots of "metropolitan open land" in Southwark, it appears. In this .pdf document --

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.southwark.gov.uk%2Fdownload%2Fdownloads%2Fid%2F6877%2Fsouthwark_open_space_strategy_2013&ei=nSfFU4q9H8ef7Aa9h4DoCw&usg=AFQjCNFZqb4kzTtqtkOggKUDKWJbZbxxGg&sig2=EfdCzFBC3GZXw4t37ufG6A

-- you can see it all. The bits of particular interest to this thread are mapped on p 75, with this key on p 94 --

OS128 Greendale Playing Field

Camberwell

Natural or semi-natural greenspaces

2.12 ha

OS129 Greendale Artificial Playing Pitch

Camberwell

Outdoor Sports Facilities - private

1.04 ha

OS130 Dulwich Hamlet

Camberwell

Outdoor Sports Facilities - private

0.80 ha

"Underused" is the term deployed in the document. Interesting to learn that OS129 is privately held.

[Siduhe]

first mate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It is also wise to consider the setting of

> precedents. Once ML is opened up for use in this

> way the same could be done elsewhere in the

> borough.

I totally agree. It's not that long ago (4-5 years) that Southwark made a bid to grab MOL in Honor Oak including the public sports facilities there (for development/use for council services). The only thing that stopped that plan is that the precedent for developing MOL is very, very limited and it was clear that a legal challenge to their plans would very likely succeed.

I'm not suggesting that everything should be preserved in aspic for ever, and goodness knows I'd like DHFC to be put on a better financial footing than they are, but large parts of our open spaces and public facilities in Southwark are on MOL and I worry that this plan will effectively open them up to development too.

[jay66]

Looks like we've cross posted: http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?6,1356936,1356936#msg-1356936

Peter John, leader of Southwark council has said this recently in an email regarding DHFC / Greendale :

"Please be reassured. I have now told these people twice in the clearest terms that they will never build on or remove any MOL at Greendale."

However, even though Southwark own Greendale (and DHFC lease it off them), any planning applications still have to go through the usual channels. Councillors can't tell the planning committee how to vote so any moves on Greendale could still get approved. Worth noting that 2 applications have been put in in the past: one for a Homebase about 13 years ago and another a couple of years ago to do just as explained above (build new stadium on current artifical pitch, build flats on current stadium).

Not heard before about the pitch being privately owned - this needs further investigating.

Opening up MOL to developers is indeed a dangerous game as it starts with one area and then others succomb to the same fate.

Anyone interested in what becomes of Greendale, please have a look here: Keeping Greendale Green: [keepinggreendalegreen.tumblr.com]

[clockworkorange]

I'd like to point out that now is the time to get mobilised, get involved with Hadley and try to amend the scheme to something which benefits the area in ways other than housing delivery and preserving dhfc . A bit like voting, if you don't do it, you can't moan.

To those concerned about infrastructure, should permission be granted the scheme will be subject to either CIL or s106 payments which theoretically should provide for the services you want. It's no good beating up the developer, they do their bit and pay the money, the better question is why does southward not spend it quickly and locally. Put pressure on the council.

Cheers to progress.

[Bluerevolution]

http://dulwichonview.org.uk/2014/07/15/the-future-of-dulwich-hamlet-fc/

[Alex K]

@bluerevolution -- scroll up to the initial post. Same press release, transcribed rather than linked.

[mikeb]

Agree s106 should in theory provide for community development. But in practice it seems that developers always do better than councils in this negotiation.

My take is that pretty much the entire planning gain should be taken by s106 levies - as this gain is entirely due to the council awarding development rights / changing use. From that point onwards, developers are welcome to whatever value they can generate from new construction / making an area more attractive.

If such an approach leads to less development then so be it - the alternative is a straight transfer of value from the community to a developer.

[clockworkorange]

Mike b- this would lead to no development at all, not just less. How exactly would that help anything/anyone? Why should developers be a charity? It's their risk, it's their reward.

[BrandNewGuy]

We went along to the Hadleys information day at DHFC on Saturday and marvelled at how slippery they are at actually describing what development they intend to carry out. There is a meeting at 8pm tonight in the Fox On The Hill to set up a possible 'Friends of Greendale' group to lobby for the best solution for the whole site. It's short notice, but at this point it's more important to move quickly and then keep others informed about how they can contribute.

The 'Keep Greendale Green' blog has some photos of the proposals ? none were available printed or as pdfs, tellingly - and further details here:

http://keepinggreendalegreen.tumblr.com/post/92458493134/hadleys-proposals-on-view

"On Satruday Hadleys, the developers who have bought the freehold which DHFC sits on, exhibited their proposals. In summary these are:

To build on the existing DHFC site &

To relocate the DHFC football pitch to the artificial pitch on Greendale

The architects (Farrells) drawings show two options (see photographs below):

To extend St Francis Park into the car park/car wash area and to use the whole of the existing club footprint for building.

To connect Greendale Fields with St Francis Park by converting the existing roadway to the south of the pitch to a green corridor.

There were no plans for specific types of building development on show and the plans for Greendale were concentrated on building a perimeter for the new pitch. It seems that this will be the key area for consideration, in terms of its MOL status, allowable use and encroachment on the green space.

Do come to the meeting about a possible Friends group tomorrow evening, Tuesday 22nd July at The Fox On The Hill pub at 8pm onwards. Apparently Southwark council have expressed opposition to the current plans and are planning their own consultation on the future of Greendale later in the year. So now is a great time for local people to come up with ideas about how best to use the space in the future."