'Fake' Vegetarians

[Blah Blah]

Why not care about both equally?

[uncleglen]

The plastic bags was just an example of the ridiculous carryings-on in this 'intelligent' society of ours.

[Jeremy]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> Why not care about both equally?

I really think anyone who values animals as highly as people must have a screw loose!

[Alan Medic]

But caring and valuing are two different things.

[haruki]

And in this context, they're hardly mutually exclusive. I'm not sure what caring about people has to do with being vegetarian. Every time you eat a piece of Quorn an orphan dies?

Without wanting to get too philosophical, it's also fairly meaningless to just make a blanket statement saying you care more about people than animals. On a practical level I expect most people who own a pet would care more about it than an arbitrary person they don't know. It's all relative.

But if it's about humanity as a whole, would the obvious extension of the statement be that you care about people more than anything else? More than plants, more than the environment, etc etc. Because then you're kind of stuck that it's all mutually dependent.

[tfwsoll]

But surely it still forcing a horse to do something it wouldn't naturally do to entertain humans?

>>I was brought up around horses so never had a problem with racing when I was younger because I believed horses were bred for racing so it was a natural thing for them to do. I've never been a fan of jump racing & don't bet on it/watch/ or support it. I don't approve of horses being killed if they break a leg on the flat either. If I owned a racehorse & it happened to me I'd try & save it whatever the cost. Look at 'Mill Reef'.

Yes, I did once put a fiver on Silver Treasure. But only because MM suggested it could win & it's not a hurdler/chaser.

Unfortunately it didn't.

[Blah Blah]

Yes Haruki. The eco system needs balance and that is something we humans are destroying. All life is a part of that eco system, and has taken millions of years to evolve. We are destroying it in just a couple of centuries. Pretty good evidence for why we perhaps should not rate humans as highly as some of us do.

[RosieH]

I guess I wasn't terribly specific, but things like soya causing mass deforestation, our western faddish taste for quinoa (not sure about fake prawns, but I know it's in Linda McCartney's fake scampi) now pricing native bolivians and peruvians out of their own nutritious crop, so they're forced to eat cheap junk food instead, demand for almond milk killing bees and causing drought - this all sticks in my craw a bit when I'm being preached at by vegetarians who eat this stuff.

To be fair, it's only really the OP who's been preachy, but the post put me in mind of high horses and glass houses and black pots and the like.

And surely if you love animals / the planet, people not eating them for even 6 months is preferable to not giving up at all.

[Loz]

aquarius moon Wrote:

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> 'Fake' vegetarians are clearly not animal lovers.

People become vegetarians for many reasons - some for religious reasons, some for (perceived) health reasons.

Not all are victims of Fluffy Cute Animal syndrome.

[Alan Medic]

I agree with Loz. I became a vegetarian 30+ years ago because I was told my Guru wanted his followers to be that way. I also gave up drinking alcohol. X number of years later I'm still a veggie by my choice though the drink malarkey I only maintained for about 5 years.

RosieH, you suggest that the deforestation of the Amazon is because of vegetarians, is that right? I don't have any facts to hand but I'd bet you a stiff drink it isn't.

[Otta]

My missus became a veggie at a young age and says it was because at the time she felt sorry for the poor animals as a child might. These days, whilst totally against animal cruelty, she does it more because she believes the world can't maintain all us meat eaters.

[aquarius moon]

Maybe you should all read my OP again. I wasn't preaching or wasting my time trying to convert meat eaters.

It was about the Daily Mail article re: vegetarians lapsing within a small space of time.

I was sad about the fact that if people are giving up meat because they are animal lovers, therefore thinking eating meat is morally wrong, they would never lapse unless they had 2nd thoughts about their beliefs. How can you choose not to eat animals because you love them & then change your mind because you miss the taste of meat?

It's about willpower. And if you don't have that will power, don't pretend to be vegetarian.

People that are giving up meat to follow fashion are therefore 'fake' vegetarians, hence this thread.

If you want to talk about environmental issues, animals V people issues, horse racing etc.... I suggest you start another thread.

Just for the record my human family/friends come first, then my animal family/friends followed by animals, then people.

[Blah Blah]

And I suggest you allow people to take any view of your OP they like, which includes disagreeing with your persective on that article. It's a public forum, not YOUR soap box.

[Otta]

How long do you have to be off the meat before you're genuine?

An alcoholic who gives up booze is never a non drinker, they're an alcoholic taking it a day at a time. This also comes down to willpower.

So by that logic, if you're a meat eater who decides not to eat meat because of the animals, then maybe you're not a vegetarian at all, but rather a meat eater taking it a day at a time.

Perhaps the ones who jump on the band wagon are in fact the real vegetarians because basically it's a movement.

[RosieH]

Alan Medic Wrote:

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> RosieH, you suggest that the deforestation of the

> Amazon is because of vegetarians, is that right? I

> don't have any facts to hand but I'd bet you a

> stiff drink it isn't.

Wow, way to twist what I wrote. I said that production of soya causes mass deforestation. If you don't have the facts to hand I suggest you look it up.

[DaveR]

Maybe people give up being 'proper' vegetarians because it's hard to maintain the required level of self-righteousness?

[Blah Blah]

Hmm Rosie. Yes soy production does result in deforestation, along with all the other cash drops that Latin America is turning to. The majority of soy grown however, is used to feed animals, like poultry, cattle and even farmed fish. Deforestation is the result of economic need, combined with global demand etc. Wrong in the harm being done to the envoronment yes, but right if you have a nation of people to feed and no help coming from anywhere else. It goes back to the premise that huge amounts of resources are required to produce all that beef that feeds burgers to nations.

We eat too much. We are completely disconnected from how our food is produced, so yes, we don't make connections between cattle feed and deforestation (unless we look into it). The truth is that a producing a beaf burger is a messy business, and has impacts beyond just the cow itself.

[RosieH]

Oh yes, I'm aware of that Blah - I'm not disputing for a second the terrible harm done to the planet by an over-reliance on beef and dairy (don't know if anyone's watched Cowspiracy? it's a bit sixth form in outlook, but utterly compelling in its message).

I'm firmly of the belief that people should take responsibility for what they consume - food, clothing, consumer goods, the lot. I'm very far from perfect, but I try to educate myself and do what I can. I know I could do better. But I do find myself getting wound up by people who blithely talk about the suffering of little bitty animals, without for a second thinking about the suffering of the planet or its population in relation to all the other choices they make.

[Lowlander]

DulwichFox / aquarius moon

I applaud your boycott of establishments that serve foie gras, that requires some discipline.

I hope you extend it to not consuming milk from industrially reared cows if you care about animal welfare? And if you're not au fait, may I point you in the direction of Compassion in World Farming's page http://www.ciwf.org.uk/farm-animals/cows/dairy-cows/welfare-issues/

You may not have been aware that the milk (and cheese) you drink often comes from cows who die well short of their normal lifespan and can suffer greatly in the process...

[uncleglen]

Someone should have a word with the pope and get him to allow birth control imvho

[Blah Blah]

I agree with you completely Rosie. We all have to take more repsonsibility for the part we all play in enabling this destructive system we live within. I'll be honest and say I don't hold out much hope of any great change. People are on the whole deeply flawed.

[aquarius moon]

We've been there/done that before Lowlander.

Really don't want to do it again.

[Otta]

But seriously, how long do you need to not eat meat before you're a genuine vegetarian?

[aquarius moon]

Otta Wrote:

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> But seriously, how long do you need to not eat

> meat before you're a genuine vegetarian?

Forever!

Your wife is obviously one and you could be too if you decided to give up meat tomorrow and were still doing it in 3 days time with no desire to change.

Once you make the commitment, it doesn't really matter how long it takes, you will get there in the end.

[Otta]

But you said before it takes willpower, which suggests there is a DESIRE to change, which you have to fight. I know my missus often looks at meat and fancies a try, she has to stop herself, even after all these years.