Ched Evans situation

[Loz]

legalbeagle Wrote:

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> No one predecided anything Loz.

Well, that's not true is it? If you sit down to study only one group, you've predecided.

> But we do not all cure everything all at once. Some are tackling the

> biggest problems first with limited resources. Others are looking at other issues.

>

> Why do you try to make everything about an underlying agenda?

An 'agenda' would suggest some underlying conspiracy. I'm not suggesting that at all. What I am saying is that, for whatever reason there has been an unnecessary gender separation is issues where there is really no reason to do so.

Domestic violence is really the obvious case in point here. Sure, it may end up with different approaches and support mechanisms, but why isn't there a single overall DV group or strategy in the UK?

[legalbeagle]

Because here's what happens:

We study a subject. Let's take domestic violence. We look at ALL the victims.

We quickly establish that there are distinct reasons for it happening to distinct groups (and that the overwhelming majority of cases happens to one particular group.)

We move on to study each group and the particular underlying causes that go with it.

[Loz]

Lovely theory. Doesn't happen as far as I've ever seen.

Or if it does, I'd love a link to where this has happened in the UK.

[legalbeagle]

"Lovely theory" - not a BIT patronising........

Not for the first time, we will have to agree to disagree. I don't imagine that either of us are going to persuade the other.

[Loz]

Not attempting to be patronising at all. I really do wish that is what actually happened.

As I said, I could be persuaded if you could show me where this has actually been done. The closest I can find after doing a little googling on UK DV strategy I found a parliament paper on the subject. The first few lines made of interesting reading.

In 2012/13, there were 1.2 million female and 700,000 male victims of domestic abuse in England and Wales. Data from the Crime Survey for England and Wales suggests that 30 per cent of women and 16.3 per cent of men in England and Wales will experience domestic violence in their lifetime.

Further in, under 'Home Office strategy' it says...

In November 2010, the Home Office published the strategy paper, Call to end violence against women and girls, setting out its approach for tackling domestic violence over the Parliament.

Your thoughts? Do those stats really justify the home office strategy concentrating entirely on women and girls?

[Otta]

Loz is the best demi troll on the EDF. He's a good contributor but has openly admitted he enjoys a wind up, and yet people go for it.

He's very good at it.

Respect.

That's not to say that everything he's saying is a wind up by the way.

[legalbeagle]

It doesn't just focus on women and girls all of the time. That particular strategy did, for the reasons I have already been through.

[Loz]

Otta,

I have been known to troll people. But, I'm happy to admit, when outed, when I am trolling. And I have trolled people on such issues on occasion.

But, in this case, I think I have a serious point to make on DV strategy. OK, it took me a while to get there. And, even though LB seems to have think me something I am not, she is actually engaging with me in (what I thought, at least) was developing into an interesting debate.

[legalbeagle]

Oh it's Ok Otta. I know what he's like. It's not the first time and I'm sure it won't be the last.

I suppose that there are some subjects I struggle to tolerate trolling on. We all have a weakness?!

[legalbeagle]

I shall leave you with a nice little pic for our troll. I think we've done this one to death.

[Loz]

legalbeagle Wrote:

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> It doesn't just focus on women and girls all of the time. That particular strategy did, for the

> reasons I have already been through.

But it is the strategy for the UK for the WHOLE of this parliament - 4 years. Yet it even admits that nearly 40% of DV victims are male. Even for 'serious attacks' it was approximately similar across genders. How can that strategy be justified?

[Blah Blah]

Gee Loz, give it a rest. Splitting hairs or what! I'm a bloke but I get exactly what LegalB is saying. Why is so hard to acknowledge that women face different challenges to men?

In all of this attempt to challenge widely accepted data, you are completely losing sight of the real issue, that rape is predominently a female experience, and predominently perpetuated by men. How we work to change attitudes and behaviour with regards to that should be what we are talking about. How do we make some men behave better than they do, so that they don't take a drunken women to a hotel room, and then call their 'mate' to join in on the way.

[Loz]

legalbeagle Wrote:

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> I shall leave you with a nice little pic for our troll. I think we've done this one to death.

Sorry, but you said you all for debate and I was in for a serious debate. No trolling at all. I don't troll those that have good argument to make and, though we aren't on the same page, I appreciated the validity of your points.

A shame really, I'd just started to really get my argument together and got to a very salient point.

[Loz]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> In all of this attempt to challenge widely accepted data, you are completely losing sight of

> the real issue, that rape is predominently a female experience, and predominently perpetuated

> by men.

No, I didn't lose sight of that. That was never what I said. I am happy to acknowledge and agree with both those points.

Current subject is now domestic violence.

[Otta]

Yeah wasn't suggesting anyone leave, just enjoying the thread.

[legalbeagle]

I wasn't leaving as such. I'm just not sure I have much else to say. This thread was about Evans and rape and I stand by what I've said so far.

If you genuinely want my thoughts on the specific point about domestic violence against men, and conservative party policy for this parliament then I would say:

1. I don't need to justify it, since I neither voted for them, wrote their manifesto, nor drafted their policy. I don't know why they decided to chose that specific policy, or how they would justify doing so if asked.

2. Were I to speculate on the reasons I would say that they decided to tackle the bigger of the two problems based on historical statistics, bearing in mind they have limited time and money and cannot focus on everything that needs solving in one 4 year parliamentary cycle. But that is just speculation. They may have had other reasons - I have no idea.

3. If you are asking whether I think that we do enough to tackle the subject of domestic violence as it affects men, then no, I do not.

4. If you are asking whether I think this changes my view that the subject needs to be tackled separately for men and women, then no, it does not.

5. There is a very good support group here: http://www.mensadviceline.org.uk/mens_advice.php.html and also here: http://www.dvmen.co.uk/ who offer advice and support to men who might find themselves the victim of violence. As is so often the case with these issues it is charities that pick up the slack and do the best work, for men and women, when it comes to DV.

6. It is my bed time. Good night all.

[legalbeagle]

Blah Blah Wrote:

"the real issue, that rape is predominently a

> female experience, and predominently perpetuated

> by men. How we work to change attitudes and

> behaviour with regards to that should be what we

> are talking about. How do we make some men behave

> better than they do, so that they don't take a

> drunken women to a hotel room, and then call their

> 'mate' to join in on the way."

But mostly, in the context of this thread, THAT is what I think.

[LadyDeliah]

Glad this guy got locked up, pity it was such a short sentence

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-30800652

[david_carnell]

Loz - on your issue with the study on sexual violence tendencies....

The reason there is no control group, to my mind, is that there are only tiny tiny numbers of women commuting sexual violence. Asking a large group of women if they'd commit consequence-free rape ignored the fact that women do not commit rape when there are consequences. In fact, legally, as mentioned earlier it's actually nearly impossible given a penis has to be involved.

What the study shows is whether men's actions are changed by consequence and law or morality.

Your "black men commit bank robberies" example doesn't work because all ethnic groups commit robberies. If stats shoes that only one did or only one didn't then it might be a more valid example.

[JohnL]

david_carnell Wrote:

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> Loz - on your issue with the study on sexual

> violence tendencies....

>

> The reason there is no control group, to my mind,

> is that there are only tiny tiny numbers of women

> commuting sexual violence. Asking a large group of

> women if they'd commit consequence-free rape

> ignored the fact that women do not commit rape

> when there are consequences. In fact, legally, as

> mentioned earlier it's actually nearly impossible

> given a penis has to be involved.

>

> What the study shows is whether men's actions are

> changed by consequence and law or morality.

>

> Your "black men commit bank robberies" example

> doesn't work because all ethnic groups commit

> robberies. If stats shoes that only one did or

> only one didn't then it might be a more valid

> example.

I assumed the talk was of men being perpetrators and

women and men being victims.

The rumor of women with 'strap-ons' used to be prevalent

in my youth - but never true I think.

[david_carnell]

You note that I didn't say men weren't victims. I just said women weren't perpetrators.

Your second comment is simply ludicrous.

[Jeremy]

Surely regarding domestic violence, the difference in strength is key. Women are not usually in a position to physically defend themselves against abusive partners. Men usually are physically able, but unwilling to defend themselves as they don't want to hurt their partner. I don't think the level of distress and fear is even similar.. and I don't see what there is to gain by protesting that it's essentially the same thing!

[Mick Mac]

Very simplistic Jeremy. Violence is about much more than the physical pain - hitting a partner doesn't have to be very painful on the recipient to be domestic violence, so yes men can suffer it too. Its about anger and fear.

[legalbeagle]

Jeremy I think you are in part correct, in that when men are abused for the first time, they often feel unable to defend themselves since we are told from an early age that you shouldn't hit women. They also feel ashamed and as though their masculinity is in question (you got beaten by a GIRL?!) That said, in most situations the man is stronger and could do more damage, all things being equal. However the key point is that in most DV cases against men, all things are not equal. For a variety of reasons the man in question will neither fight back nor leave. Take a look at my two earlier links for more info.

[Otta]

In about 1999 when I was living in Liverpool I had a row with my girlfriend. She went ape shit and started hitting me (as was her thing), I covered up and she continued. Eventually, being a bit fed up of being hit, I pushed her back (the bed was right behind her so I just pushed her to a sitting position on the bed) and she immediately grabbed the phone and dialled 999.

She hung up straight away without saying anything, but sure enough a van arrived a couple of minutes later with 8 coppers in the back. They all came up to our flat and 4 went in a room with her, 4 in a room with me. One of them pointed out that I was bleeding by my ear. "That's because she was hitting ME" I said. But despite that fact, and the fact that she was completely unharmed and told them I'd not touched her, I was given the choice of finding somewhere else to stay, or sleeping in a cell. It was about 1am.

So that was fun.

Really pissed me off, and still does.