How to teach Muslims about dealing with offense

[reggie]

There is an idea going round that all the newspapers should get together, on the same day, and publish a picture of Mohammed in order to demonstrate solidarity against the Paris killings and somehow 'show' how we feel about freedom of speech.

This rubs salt into the wound, why insult muslims further?

So this is an idea.

For the media to publish boldly, on the same day, something that is truly offensive to their own deeply help beliefs or icons but not of an islamic nature. For example, Tatler magazine putting a cartoon of the Queen Mother giving Hitler a blowy...you get my gist.

This would demonstrate the ability to take offence where as the other way simply enrages people already maddened by insult.

[uncleglen]

No it wouldn't- it would just reinforce to muslims that we are as decadent and disrespectful as they already think we are!

[LadyDeliah]

Lol, the Queen sucking off Hitler, yes I'd like to see that and see how many people get their knickers in a twist over it. Especially the ones shouting loudly about free-speech now.

[Mick Mac]

He said the Queen Mother. The Queen has standards.

[LadyDeliah]

Lol, my bad.

[Blah Blah]

That image has just put me off my dinner, but it's a satire that you would have seen in the political cartoons of the 19th century. The British press was full of such, with no holds barred.

I think it's hard to know what to do, without giving power to the fundamentalist cause. But Reggie is right in that we don't see cartoons in the press ridiculing Jesus. And we take issues of anti-semitism seriously, so we should also think carefully about genuine offence to muslims too.

[miga]

.

[Mick Mac]

Putting religion aside would Charlie have insulted a race in the same way and called it free speech?

[Loz]

LadyDeliah Wrote:

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> Lol, the Queen sucking off Hitler, yes I'd like to see that

Then it doesn't count, surely? It doesn't sound like you find it offensive at all. Surely the game is to describe something you personally would find offensive.

[LadyDeliah]

Loz Wrote:

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> LadyDeliah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Lol, the Queen sucking off Hitler, yes I'd like

> to see that

>

> Then it doesn't count, surely? It doesn't sound

> like you find it offensive at all. Surely the game

> is to describe something you personally would find

> offensive.

Not much offends me, but I'd like to see the reaction of other people, especially when burning flags (and poppies) had some calling for the perps to be killed.

[Robert Poste's Child]

I think the subject line of this thread alone would be enough to offend many people, not just Muslims.

[reggie]

But most of the liberal press, and its readers, are thinking, especially this week,'how do we respond to these Paris killings' And a liberal mind, with a tinge of anger or repressed violence, can easily confuse 'teach' with 'respond'.

[Robert Poste's Child]

After the last week I really hope that a liberal press or mind would choose its words very carefully. 'Teach' would be the language of the right wing, surely. To many people it would imply a hierarchy of power, even of ownership of 'the truth', that Muslims are 'wrong' if they are offended (presumably you did mean only those who are offended, not all Muslims - there are liberals in all faiths).

Goodness knows what the answer is. Personally I would like to see a lot more leaders of all religions actively preaching the similarities between faiths as most have similar ideas about how to live a good life.

[reggie]

But this isn't about leading a good life or finding links between faiths. It is about how to react to outrage.

The Times newspaper front page showing a cartoon of a 'satirical' dildo shoved up the Queen's arse would begin to progress the issue.

[Blah Blah]

It's a very complex one though isn't it, because muslims kill each other all the time, and I think, what is actually about regional and tribal power, becomes confused as being the Islamic world vs the West. Iraq is a perfect example of two different muslim tribes hating each other. Osama Bin Laden's real enemy was the Saudi Royal Family, again his idea of a muslim state differed from theirs. Any alliance or dealings with the West becomes the excuse for what is really just internal groups trying to overthrow their governments and impose dictatorship. IS is Al Qaeda and Al Qaeda was the Mujahideen. They are just different names for a conflict that has been raging for decades, and some would argue, since the end of the first world war.

[Blah Blah]

And the best way to react to outrage is to encourage a sense of perspective. Only by diminishing the meaning and impact of these terrorists, do you devolve them of the attention and power they seek.

[Loz]

Robert Poste's Child Wrote:

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> After the last week I really hope that a liberal press or mind would choose its words very

> carefully. 'Teach' would be the language of the right wing, surely.

Liberal is not the same as 'left'. I find both left and right equally complicit in wanting to 'teach' all and sundry the delights of their viewpoint of the world.

Liberal, on the other hand, I could see would avoid it.

[Robert Poste's Child]

Exactly. Think we're making the same point - I was picking up on the OP's terms.

[Parkdrive]

It's a very complex one though isn't it, because muslims kill each other all the time

And non muslims have been slaughtering each other for decades, Northern Ireland for example, stupid crass remark.

[legalbeagle]

Might be helpful to distinguish here between "Muslims" and "terrorists". Much like I expect Christians would like you to distinguish between them and the Klu Klux Klan.

Plenty of Muslims will be offended by cartoons about their faith (as plenty of Christians were about theirs in exactly the same publication).

A tiny, extreme, terrorist minority consider it worthy of a gun fight on the streets of Paris.

I'm not sure anyone needs teaching anything.

[Robert Poste's Child]

Well put, leagalbeagle.

Twelve years ago, in the aftermath of 9/11, I had an American colleague who kept going on about religious fundamentalists. Eventually I asked if that included the one in the White House at the time.

[legalbeagle]

It's a good point that you make Robert.

I also often wonder about the nature of offence. I've been incredibly offended by comments made in the media from time to time, on subjects that are close to me, for a variety of reasons. So, I am offended. But....nothing HAPPENS.

Are we moving into a world in which we somehow believe that it is our right NOT to be offended? We are diverse in beliefs and views. Some of them exist in total opposition to others. We have to learn to put up with that, don't we? Be offended, if we are, and then move on? Not demand that the offence is somehow made up for?

I think that's where some of the hints of hypocrisy come from when we talk about teaching others how to respond. We defend freedoms until WE are upset......

(Within the bounds of law, obviously. Being offended by criminal activity, such as an incitement to racial hatred, by way of example, is not something you should just "get over".)

[Robert Poste's Child]

It's an intrinsic part of the freedom of speech which attracted people of many different faiths to this and other Western countries.

When I was a child my grandfather often used to quote to us, 'I disapprove of what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it.' It's that, really.

[Jeremy]

It's hard to imagine that publishing ANY cartoon is going to make any real difference.

Saying "look at us, we can take a joke and you can't" is hardly going to have much impact on a group of people who already hold beliefs that are twisted and perverted beyond any conceivable logic.

And saying "we'll keep publishing this sort of material no matter what you do" is not going to make the slightest bit of difference either.

[Blah Blah]

Parkdrive Wrote:

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> It's a very complex one though isn't it, because

> muslims kill each other all the time

>

> And non muslims have been slaughtering each other

> for decades, Northern Ireland for example, stupid

> crass remark.

It's not a stupid remark. My point was that the media likes to portray fundamentalism as a battle between the Islamic world and the West. I was simply pointing out this is not the case, that fundamentalism is as much a nuisance to the Islamic world and other muslims as it is to the west.