Private vs State education (Primary level).

[fruitcake]

OK guys. This may (or may not!) provoke some polarised responses, but I'm in a dilemma and would welcome some frank, informed (but not rude please!) opinions on the subject of private vs state education.

Fruitcakedaughter (FCD)is in Year 1 at a local primary school that Ofsted has just recommended needs to pay more attention to setting appropriate challenges for its "more able children". FCD is one of these children.

She is very, very happy with her school and she DOES have similarly able peers at the moment.

BUT....

I am concerned that the school may not be able to respond quickly enough to the Ofsted report in order for her to benefit from improvements (Which I am, btw, absolutely sure they'll endeavour to make). The last thing I want for FCD is for her to get the message that school's a bit of a doddle and she can rest on her laurels and still get by. It was something that happened to me and I failed to learn the extremely important lesson about the value/importance of making an effort and trying your hardest (no matter what the outcome) and all the self esteem stuff attached to that.

I suspect that a local private education would not allow that to happen (selective entry, etc) or at the least make it much less likely.

HOWEVER...

I really do NOT want FCD to end up in a rarified atmosphere where (from my anecdotal observations of some local privately educated children out and about in East Dulwich)she is out of touch with the "real world" and where she develops an inflated opinion of herself and a superior attitude to anyone who doesn't go to private school. And frankly, I just can't see me fitting in to the stereotypical private school mum... (no offence meant!) - but it just isn't me.

Having attended both state and independent schools, I have experienced the pros and cons of both systems. In fact, both of them were excellent in their own way, so I have no fixed view on which was "better", having been happy at both.

It feels like I'm having to make a decision between

a)definite happiness where she currently attends but risking inadequate stimulation for her with the long term effects of that OR

b)having a second to none, privileged education where competitiveness and a somewhat skewed view of society seem to be inevitable.

Money (very fortunately) is not the issue here. It's about what's really best for FCD in both the short term and the long term.

SIGH!

If anyone has experience of chewing (agonising!) over this decision, I'd really welcome your views/knowledge.

We would need to be setting up diaries for visits to the local private schools for September term, so time is of the essence.

And, btw, I'm not in favour of her attending extra tuition outside school hours were she to stay in her current school, because a) she's too young to be doing that, imo and b) it will increase the divide between what school offers her and what she does outside school and I think that would lead to a whole new set of problems!

WHAT TO DO?!:-S

[legalalien]

I agree that some of the local private schools - especially for girls - seem, anecdotally at least, to be a bit scary. Without commenting on the core issue -of educational standards - I would say that you can probably discount the issue of whether you are the "right kind of parent". My son is in the nursery department of a boys' independent school and this was something I was completely paranoid about it before he started (while both DH and I have professional jobs we were both state educated and from the wrong side of the tracks, in my case at least). The vast majority of parents have not been at all snobby / obsessed with their children's progress etc etc - sure there are a few, but there a few everywhere.

Also I don't agree that the skewed view of society is entirely inevitable. Preventing that is something I take quite seriously :)

Good luck with your choice. Surely having a look around can't hurt?

[Fuschia]

I am opposed in principle to private schools, so wouldn't send my child to one for that reason.

But i think if you're concerned your daughter may not achieve her best at her current school, and you can easily afford a private school (and I guess cope with the competition to get into a private secondary school) then the fear of her becoming a bit snobbish are rather outweighed...

Given the privileges a private education gives, I can't see why people who can afford it and aren't opposed in principle, end up with their children in the state sector?

[womanofdulwich]

Dear Fruitcake

I feel you pain!.

Start lining up schools for autumn as a fall back position. One of my children goes to St Dunstans and I don't think it generates that arrogant attitude you are worried about. I was so worried about it and steered clear of some Dulwich schools for that reason, but really as parents you get a good idea of other parents of children at those schools and what their attitudes will be and how they and the school culture will influence your child. I have met delightful children from Dulwich private schools, together with some ghastly ones.

The advantage of a good state education means that you can mix with all types and are more rounded in some ways. However it can feel like a chore sometimes, whilst if you go private you feel more like a client. Also don't forget all the debates about university places to state v private school children.

You do not need a tutor to stimulate your child- if you have time or good childcare they should also do this - days out to museums, reading, playing board games, sports , music etc. Most of all enjoy your daughter- she sounds great!:)

[BellendenBear]

Mr Bear and I debate this issue frequently. Our only conclusion is to get out of London before they are 7!

[Jessie]

Why get out of London before they're 7? What will happen if you don't?

[Mellors]

If mnoney wasn't an issue I would send mine privately, no question.

I too am looking at the moving out of London thing though.

There is no way my children will go to some of the schools in this borough.

[BQC]

So then, moving on - where to move out to? We're constantly talking about it - but moving to the country for us would be a move to a house down a country lane, not a semi in Reigate.. has anyone found an area with a good vibe - not gin n' jags as we've found out Surrey way

[Mellors]

It would be Suffolk/Essex borders for us (East Bergholt/Dedham/Manningtree).

Fab houses, cheap, great schools (ahem), Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, nearer to family. Hour on the train to Liverpool St.

[chantelle]

i would go private and not worry about whether i fit in as a private school mum. and if your child becomes a snob, there will be plenty of opportunities for life to cut her down to size.

[Coach Beth]

My personal feeling is that children in this country go into formal education settings much earlier than in most other countries which I don't think is a good thing I think that year 1 and even year 2 children are mostly learning the basics - learning how to socalise, learning about getting on in the world. In some countries, children do play based education up to age 7. In private Rudolph Steiner schools, they don't even learn to read till 7 and they only do half days AND from the educational research carried out, starting formal education later rather than earlier works much better!

I kinda think that it's too young to be worried about setting educational challenges for kids. For me, it's more important for them to feel secure and happy and to learn about socialising with others when they are 5, 6 and 7 than to be academically challenged. If you are a good parent, are stimulating your child at home, they will be fine. OR, why not do some volunteer work in the school - some reading in the classroom a couple of hours a week?? Then all the kids will benefit from your efforts!!!

[boswell]

Not sure that my opinion is worth much as I'm not a parent myself but had to chip in because I recognise myself in the situation your daughter?s in! I went to a state primary school which didn?t push me at all (although they did try with extra activities and that sort of thing ) but was very happy there. I then went to a private secondary school which pushed me a bit more but to be honest I recognise what you?re saying about resting on your laurels ? I got used to it at primary school and pretty much continued to do it all through secondary school and even university, never pushing myself to do the best I could because I didn?t need to. And although it hasn?t negatively affected me academically it is a big regret that I never pushed myself just to personally feel that I?d really tried as hard as I could at something.

So if it?s an attitude problem you don?t want to see develop then possibly private school?s the way to go, although to be honest although I can see the benefits of private school at secondary level I'm not sure they apply in the same way at primary and I also don't know that they outwiegh the negatives you mention above. As far as academics and university are concerned, my personal opinion tends to be that unless your child is in a disruptive class that prevents them learning, if they?re very able they get along fine wherever they are, however I did enjoy the extra benefits that going to a private secondary school gave me.

Just my tuppence worth.

[Curmudgeon]

She's 6. I'd spend some time remembering what concerned you when you were 6. I'm sure it was trees and friends and tooth fairies. She's 6. You're potentially getting caught up in the ratrace. She's happy, she has interested, involved parent(s) she'll be fine.

Private school or state school up to you.

She's 6

[Curly]

Firstly are Ofsted talking about your child? They could be referring to further up the school rather than Year 1.

Secondly, in my experience the only people who have issue with private schools are the middle classes. Given the chance a working class person will send their child to private school in a flash so it could be you are being the snob you don't want your daughter to be (sorry I know you said no rude comments but not sure how to say it any other way lol).

Thirdly, there are lots of ways you as the parent can supplement any deficiancies at school without resorting to tutors. Give your child lots of well-rounded experiences that extend her thinking, creativity and analytical skills and then don't think about it again until the end of Year 2.

[Mellors]

Ha ha Curly, very true, I am properly working class and went to really skanky state schools - hence my saying I would go private in a flash if I had the money!

My husband was privately educated from primary level and also sees the benefits of it (he is still very good friends with a lot of his schoolmates for examle, where as most of mine are in prison or on crack, or both). He isn't a bit stuck up, but I think it does give you confidence, and him and his friends all seem to have done very well for themselves.

I can't see what the issue is really if money is no object. As somebody above said, life will knock and pretentions out of them sooner or later.

[womanofdulwich]

Doesn't anyone feel the guilt that money buys you privilege? Do I need therapy? I still feel uncomfortable about it.

[intexasatthe moment]

All this talk of doing one's best/not resting on your laurels/trying your hardest.

For me this translated into being a perfectionist and ,though others may succeed in balancing this trait ,I never have and it's definitely blighted my life.

Girls can become very competitive in high achieving schools.

I have two nieces from the same family - one went to a state comprehensive and the other to a selective private school.

Guess which one became anorexic ?

I understand what you're saying about not wanting your daughter to learn that she can coast/rest on her laurels so hope you don't mind this word of caution ,always being challenged ,not resting on your laurels can be a double edged sword.

Suppose it depends on your personality some become neurotic, others might thrive on being stretched - your daughter might thrive and become the next Prime Minister !

[sillywoman]

Keep her where she's happy & make the decision at secondary level. If she's of average intelligence she'll get in wherever you want to send her at that point.

We've got a couple at secondary (local Comp - no cash!) and a couple at primary so have seen the process a few times. It seems to me what people who wanted to go private at secondary did was got a tutor from yr5 onward. This does seem to be important as the child needs to be trained to sit the entrance exams. As an aside I have to say it was the kids who weren't the sharpest knives in the block from our school who went to Alleyns - so maybe not so hard to get into as people like to say.

She doesn't need to be pushed at primary level. At this stage kids need to learn to read & write, take an interest in the world around them and feel safe and happy in their own small worlds. Don't move her yet, is my opinion.

[nunheadmum]

I think this is a hard one because ultimately there are so many variables and mostly it'll depend on what kind of person your daughter is - which won't be clear really until she's a good bit older, by which time you won't know anyway whether it's because of or in spite of what you've chosen. It's that unknown element which makes parenting so hard (IMHO)!

I'd probably go with keeping her in the school she's happy in and making sure she's given opportunity to be exposed to lots of different experiences outside of school with her parents etc. That way you'll get your own sense of what she really is like as a person and what might suit her. If her teacher is good, she may be able to recommend things you can do with her to stretch her, if the school doesn't have the resources to do it themselves. Hopefully then you'll know your daughter better and be able to help her make the right choice come secondary time - which I guess is more formative in terms of long term achievement.

[Citrovie]

I fully agree with sillywoman (who should really change her user name because there's nothing remotely silly about her). They're so young at primary school age. The "she's 6" post may be a bit blunt but there is some truth to it. Happiness and confidence are so much more important than being stimulated academically, especially at that age. There will be plenty of opportunity for that in secondary school, be it private or state. The right kind of parents will keep a private school kid from becoming a snob and will make sure a state school kid takes education seriously (not to criticise your parents - I was also a relatively good and (therefore) lazy student and also wish I had worked harder and learned more).

I hate the whole system of private versus state schools, I don't want to have to choose. I grew up in a country where the division doesn't exist and am tempted to move back just to keep mini-Citrovie out of the rat race. If I can afford it (probably not but you never know) and still live in London when my she's ready for secondary school, I will probably consider private education. If she can get into a good state school, better. If not, I'd look for a private school that's serious about education but otherwise as down to earth as possible.

In your particular case I wouldn't take my daughter out of a school where she's happy, especially since it's only primary school. Reconsider it for secondary school. Just my opinion of course and take it with a grain of salt as I didn't even grow up here.

Good luck with your decision.

[EmmaG]

Someone mentioned the possibility of guilt at money buying privilege - it depends on how you look at it. You could say parents who pay for private education are subbing the state sector by paying for it and not taking anything from it. Witness the problems some boroughs are having accommodating the kids now leaving the private sector and needing state education.

Second, has anyone thought about the Steiner schools? There's one in Streatham. http://www.steinerwaldorf.org/

Third, you could do worse than move out Kingston/Sutton way. Great state schools round there, especially secondary provision for able kids (not so good for the less able, unfortunately).

[quickbrownfox]

I think a high academic standard at primary school is every bit as important as the quality of later education, for both able and less able children.

I was lucky enough to go to an excellent state primary school and that solid foundation meant that the rest of my school career was relatively straightforward - not having to try too hard (and still doing well because you are at a quality school) means there's more time for other things like.....chilling out....sport....friends. Getting things right from the start (whether state or private) I think can avoid problems later on.

Although your daughter's happiness at her current school definitely makes it a more difficult decision, she would adapt quickly to a new school I am sure, probably quicker now than at any stage in the future.

PS My mum taught at a Steiner school for a time, and her feedback was the children were lovely (very gentle environment) but that it's not ideal for kids who thrive on competitive sports or need more variety in the curriculum later in life.

[nicolemodesti]

As a teacher myself, in state primary, I would ask the school if they have a Gifted and Talented leader who may support your daughter. This usually is designated to the SENCO but some schools may have a G&T coordinator. Although the class teacher should be differentiating the lesson plans for all ability childen. There is also intervention programmes that can be followed in numeracy and literacy. Within our school G&T children are not targeted until Year 3, but have been identified at an earlier stage, and 'more able' activities are set in planning. Worth discussing with the class teacher.

If you do decide private just remember the 'common entrance' exams and they do start at 7 as I have tutored many children in preparation for them, even at that early age!! So many children sitting a day of exams for limited places.

Good luck with your choice.

[DVdad]

We're very happy with local state primary, but the class sizes are twice those of the JA pre-prep. DD major went to the local (and rather over-subscribed) state primary and has done very well, but is now bumping up against the upper bounds - and not just of her year's cohort.

We sent DD minor to the pre-prep, because we were convinced she was even more G&T than her sister. In many ways the facilities at the pre-prep are more limited, but the smaller class sizes are a very clear benefit: DD major's class teacher took six months to recognise her abilities (even to persuade us that he knew who she really was).

We're going to have problems in September if we keep DD major at the state primary, because we are concerned she will be held back in academic terms.

[Otto]

we have one child in private, and, one in the highly rated dulwich hamlet. Our hamlet child switched over from DCPS early last autumn as we were credit crunched. We are both adjusting to the change. I can say hands down I would switch him back if we had the cashflow even though the hamlet is a good school. Why? Very large class sizes and my easily distracted child is very distracted by the more free behavior in the class. He has gone backward academically over the year, though some of that can be attributed to switching schools rather than the school itself. As well, the school is much less structured with homework and lessons etc which does not work well for us. I do feel he has gone back an entire grade level and that was qualified by our latest school report. There really is a vast difference between the quality of education which is a bit sad as we'd like to be believers in the state system. On the upside, he is doing more creative work in the state school as the art program is very good.

good luck with your ponderings....it is indeed a difficult issue.