Plastic bag free day In Dulwich (Saturday 12th)

[Ted Max]

Just back from a week in Ireland and observing shopping habits around me I can't say I saw a rise in heavier plastic bags

The theory is that because people have fewer supermarket bags to hand they are not using them as impromptu bin liners, and are buying more actual bin liners.

Or did you know that?

I wasn't saying it was posturing. Like you, I think there is a case for reducing their use.

[SeanMacGabhann]

yeah I knew that which is why I checked with the family in Cork - they say they bought bin bags before as small plastic bags were useless for rubbish. I tend to agree

If there was a rise in plastic bin bags and it was directly related to the introduction of the tax, was it a blip in habits or was it sustained

The recent broo ha ha around old-skool lighbulbs has seen queues in hardware stores as people "stock up" but that too will flatten over time

[Ted Max]

Fair enough - it sounded as if perhaps you were checking out shopping bags. As I said, there are no official figures so I've no idea if it was a one off spike.

I too buy bin bags already. Plastic bags can only hold about an old newspaper, a wine bottle and a couple of milk cartons, before they are full up.

[Jeremy]

Ted Max Wrote:

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> an old newspaper, a wine bottle and a couple of milk cartons

All of which should be recycled instead of put in the bin!

Sorry... couldn't resist.

[sophiesofa]

I didn't buy small bin bags before but now I sometimes do, carrier bags are the perfect size for bedroom, office and bathroom bins.

I must get into the habit of carrying around a cloth bag!

What really peeves me off is marks and spencers. They seem to always try and give you a small bag if you buy just a sndwich. Surely with they're 5p bigger bag policy that they say is for the ennvironment they shouldn't so willingly try and force a small bag on you, I have to request that they take my sarnie out of the bag again. They always seem so shocked and sometimes so, no it's alright they're free. Then there are the M&S shoppers who refuse to pay the 5p and insist instead that they be given a couple of the smaller bags.

[Ted Max]

All of which should be recycled instead of put in the bin!

Sorry... couldn't resist.

Who could, Jeremy, with a nice big fat worm like that wriggling on the hook?

Sorry, Monica. Plastic bags...

[lard]

Ted Max Wrote:

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> All of which should be recycled instead of put in

> the bin!

>

> Sorry... couldn't resist.

>

> Who could, Jeremy, with a nice big fat worm like

> that wriggling on the hook?

>

> Sorry, Monica. Plastic bags...

Well let's not get started on the recycling fallacy. Glass, paper, aluminium really aren't causing that much harm to the environment. Glass is just sand, the paper industry plants more trees than it uses. etc. Landfill really isn't a problem (what comes out the earth is just going back into it albeit in different form). The energy involved in collecting, sorting, melting down, reutilising these materials I would presume far outweighs the energy used in just using fresh material.

All this wasted time could be put to better use!

It's another one of these things that makes people feel better. Window-dressing at it's finest.

Massive tax on more than one child would have a much better effect, if we really wanted to change how much we consume.

[SeanMacGabhann]

lard

Southend or Brighton beach. Take your pick. Bot about an hour away - Lots of sand there... now go make some glass yeah?

I might be with you on the more than one child tax tho'

[lard]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> lard

>

> Southend or Brighton beach. Take your pick. Bot

> about an hour away - Lots of sand there... now go

> make some glass yeah?

>

> I might be with you on the more than one child tax

> tho'

My point is that there is nothing in glass that is harmful to the environment, it is merely energy used in making glass that is the problem. Energy in collecting and reforming glass isn't much different than energy to form it in the first instance.

Brighton is pebbles anyway :-)

[Jeremy]

lard Wrote:

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> Energy

> in collecting and reforming glass isn't much

> different than energy to form it in the first

> instance.

I'm sure I read somewhere that recycling a bottle saves enough energy to run a light bulb for 4 hours, or a computer for 30 minutes. This is not something I know a lot about, and I'm by no means the "greenest" person around, but what you say doesn't seem correct to me...

[monica]

lard Wrote:

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> monica Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Lard, I see your point, however if you look at

> how

> > much oil and energy used in the plastics

> industry

> > then in contrast using a cloth bag in

> comparison

> > costs nothing. I returned from my hols this

> > morning and I heard Plastic bag free day went

> > really well, hopefully the message will get

> across

> > that a drop in the ocean (not using plastic

> bags)

> > will cause a ripple effect, locally,

> nationally,

> > globally.

>

> Poly bags is a tiny part of the plastics

> industry.

> Cloth bags are a tiny part of the cloth industry.

>

> Both use energy. The cotton doesn't magically get

> picked, weaved, distributed to you, the bag

> fabricated etc.

> I would hazard a guess that a poly bag actually

> uses less energy in production, as it is quicker

> to make and lighter to transport.

>

> Both can be re-used, both get put in landfill at

> the end of their life.

>

> You should be saying "re-use" not "don't use".

>

> It's as misguided as people saying buy a new Prius

> or G-Whizz car. The energy to produce these new

> cars far outweighs any fuel savings over using an

> existing old Ford Fiesta.

>

> Similarly, not having kids is the most green thing

> you can do, as over the course of a life we

> consume an incredible amount, but I don't see

> anyone on Lordship Lane promoting "Kid Free Day"!

>

> Still, if it makes you happy, enjoy!

Lard I think you really need to do your research first before you state misguided facts. If you have time look at the Marine conservation Society website which has Information regarding energy used for making plastic bags. Landfill, countrysides, pavements and gutters are the very places we are trying to deter the bags from. I suggest when you have 90mins watch the age of stupid.Great factual film showing us how we, globally are contributing to destroying the planet.

You are obviously making light of the matter and still if it makes you happy enjoy.

THAMES 21 who are responsible for keeping the River Thames as clear as possible emailed me the figures of how much plastic was dumped there, also glass old wheels and the odd condom(used I think) not a good thing when you think of the wildlife who inhabit the banks of the river Thames.

We as a race need to take responsibility for our environments, and not pass it on to the next generation.

[lard]

Think you need to look into how much water it takes to get cotton, then you can make a full decision. Similarly, if there was the same number of cotton bags by the river it would be just as bad. It's the "throwing them away" mentality that is the problem, not necessarily the material.

I'm not making light of the matter. I still stand by my main points, that in general you should be saying "re-use" not "don't use", and that often (in the case of Prius cars etc) there is a lot of window-dressing going on. More effort should be made on promoting the concept of not having kids and not flying, as these make a massive difference in comparison to plastic bags.

Surely you can see the madness of creating additional cloth bags, when there are literally gazillions of plastic bags already in existence??

[sophiesofa]

plastic bags simply don't last as long though.

[lard]

But until all the ones that are currently in the world run out, you can use them. They exist anyway. Double them up or something, then they will last for quite a while. Then use them to throw your rubbish away, instead of buying another bin liner.

Don't just add another cloth bag to a world already full of bags. Think of the pesticides, water irrigation, manpower, weaving, bleaching, transport fuel etc that goes into making the cloth for that new cloth bag. You can re-use any plastic bag that you find/already have. We are not starting from scratch here. It is greener to re-use than to create.

There is a similar argument for cars, if you want to be "green" don't buy a new car. Use an existing car. It's not as if there aren't cars in the world already.

For anything. Don't buy new, re-use what there already is. Make the bags out of old t-shirts or something.

I don't care if people want to use cloth bags, plastic bags whatever. It's ultimately your choice. We are all consumers and it is personal choice how much you choose to consume. We all consume in different ways. I just get irritated by hypocrisy, lack of thought, preaching and/or posturing.

[sophiesofa]

But people already re-use the plastic ones, but there's only a limited re-use value to them ie they break. Since the cloth ones have become 'fashionable' in the last few years plastic bag creation has decreased. Nobody is suggesting that we just throw away all the existing plastc bags.

[Cassius]

I certainly agree with Lard that there is a lot of posturing and a holier than thou attitude amongst many of the cloth bag carriers. They have been charging for plastic bags and offering 'bags for life' on the continent for years without all this 'aren't we wonderful' stuff.

[sophiesofa]

I went to sainsburys on the plastic bag free day with 4 re-used plastic bags and I didn't feel bad at all. I think the holier than thou thing is a bit paranoid, but that's just my opinion.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Do they have no "aren't we wonderful" type people? really?

then again it could be true as the concept of doing away with plastic bags maybe doesn't have quite the same divided reaction it does here.. they have mostly adopted the euro for example but over here in Engerland....

[monica]

lard Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Think you need to look into how much water it

> takes to get cotton, then you can make a full

> decision. Similarly, if there was the same number

> of cotton bags by the river it would be just as

> bad. It's the "throwing them away" mentality that

> is the problem, not necessarily the material.

>

> I'm not making light of the matter. I still stand

> by my main points, that in general you should be

> saying "re-use" not "don't use", and that often

> (in the case of Prius cars etc) there is a lot of

> window-dressing going on. More effort should be

> made on promoting the concept of not having kids

> and not flying, as these make a massive difference

> in comparison to plastic bags.

>

> Surely you can see the madness of creating

> additional cloth bags, when there are literally

> gazillions of plastic bags already in existence??

Lard we all have a right to our own opinions, and good luck with yours. Cloth bag users in the main do not have a holier then thou image, they have I care about the world image. Make of it as you will, We are trying to do something and we are happy with it.