Poor White Boys are the worst performing pupils

[LondonMix]

New EHRC report has been released and all the talk on the other thread about outcomes for different races etc reminded me of this. No one seems to know why this is happening. As and expat its really perplexing. Curious what those on the forum think is the explanation.

ETA links on university attendance as well as the EHRC went into detail on this point as well in painting the overall picture.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/11987142/Ethnic-minorities-more-likely-to-go-to-university-than-white-working-class-British-children.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/the-filter/11965045/White-working-class-boys-are-the-worst-performing-ethnic-group-at-school.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-27886925

[KidKruger]

I'm sure it'll be blamed on immigrants !

[LondonMix]

Of course! Someone from Ofsted reporting to the government actually suggested that teachers ignored poor white students because of a fair of being seen as racist. The EHRC mentioned it could come down to immigrants / minorities seeing education as a source of social mobility where white working class pupils don't see that to the same degree.

It's interesting because white working class pupils under perform all other ethnic groups from the working class. They are also the least likely to attend university even when they have better results.

[KidKruger]

My white working class extended family expect benefits, housing allowance etc and when they do have a job play sickies etc. basically milk it to the hilt, as do there peers.

The Gujurati who runs the local corner shop cannot read or write, never takes a day off and of his 4x kids two are in medical school to be doctors, one a scientist the other an accountant.

By comparison white working class from this country (and obvs I'm generalising, so please) are lazy, expect too much and will be pizzed all over by those coming here who recognise (and appreciate) the opportunities.

'We' seem to have lost grip of the basic precept that all you need to do is an honest days work, in a large part the fault of continuous Govts allowing the population to abuse what was meant to be a welfare structure for those in need, as opposed to those who can't be arsed. Same applies to attitude towards school.

Generalising but not a million miles from truth if you're honest.

ETA: let's see if this gets accused of being racist, if I was generalising about non-white it would take only seconds !

[rodneybewes]

KidKruger Wrote:

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> My white working class extended family expect

> benefits, housing allowance etc and when they do

> have a job play sickies etc. basically milk it to

> the hilt, as do there peers.

> The Gujurati who runs the local corner shop cannot

> read or write, never takes a day off and of his 4x

> kids two are in medical school to be doctors, one

> a scientist the other an accountant.

>

> By comparison white working class from this

> country (and obvs I'm generalising, so please) are

> lazy, expect too much and will be pizzed all over

> by those coming here who recognise (and

> appreciate) the opportunities.

> 'We' seem to have lost grip of the basic precept

> that all you need to do is an honest days work, in

> a large part the fault of continuous Govts

> allowing the population to abuse what was meant to

> be a welfare structure for those in need, as

> opposed to those who can't be arsed. Same applies

> to attitude towards school.

>

> Generalising but not a million miles from truth if

> you're honest.

>

> ETA: let's see if this gets accused of being

> racist, if I was generalising about non-white it

> would take only seconds !

I don't know how racist it is but the great majority of working class white kids around me are desperate for a job and worried about their futures. I don't see a whiff of complacency or laziness amongst them - they want a future they can't see at the moment. Seeing as we're on the generalisations, maybe it's just your family ethos?

[Blah Blah]

Yes I agree Rodney.

I think you are falling into the trap of media steroetypes KidK. There's not doubt that people like that do exist, but it's not any bigger a problem than it ever was.

In the past, those families were the canon fodder, filled the factories and mines - jobs that were boring, repetitive and meeded more stamina than skill or thinking.

50% of young people go on to do degrees. Some of the rest follow other formal education or training routes. I don't think any of those young people lack work ethic. They do whatever they can to improve their chances of getting a job.

The generational welfare dependence is out there, but a lot of it is in areas blighted by unemployment and decline. It's not a black and white issue. And successive governments have failed to find any answer to it.

Even in London, advertised unskilled jobs recieve hundreds of applications for just one job. There are people who are just left behind by it all.

[LondonMix]

50% of working class kids do not go on to higher education though. In fact working class white children go on to university less than any other group and that's been the case for years and years now.

I know personally many people who don't fit that profile and who were the first inter family to attend uni etc.

The underperformance compared to all other groups though is a serious problem nonetheless as is the underperformance of boys vs girls at all levels of education and in all ethnicities. No one can understand it so nothing is being done. The government has studied it extensively but are still at a loss as to what the specific policy changes are that are needed.

[Blah Blah]

But what is the measure of underperformance? Exam passes? We have this idea that educational achievement is the measure of success. But it's not. It's just a measure of who goes to University.

Environment and nurture is a better measure.

[Loz]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> But what is the measure of underperformance? Exam passes? We have this idea that educational

> achievement is the measure of success.

How else would you measure 'success' in terms of schooling?

[Otta]

Uncomfortable as it may be, I see some truth in KK's post. Not saying white working class lads don't want to work and just want benefits, but I do think it's fair to say that as a rule they lack the aspiration of other groups.

University fees probably haven't helped either.

[malumbu]

Why the Daily Mail thread headline

Why not put it in the positive - ethnic groups and immigrants doing better at school.

And therefore improving quality of life.

That would give other groups something to aspire to.

[Jeremy]

TBH it kind of makes sense that immigrants, who have presumably come to the UK for a better life, would push their children and grandchildren to take full advantages of the opporunities available here.

[LondonMix]

Its not just about university. The under-performance is across numerous measures including reading ability at each key development stage as well as progress made at testing for each key development stage in core subjects.

A few people seem to think the white British working class don't view education as a means of social mobility the way that other groups do. I don't know if that's true as like I say, it doesn't tally with my personal experience but its an interesting theory.

[KidKruger]

Rodney - possibly it's just my extended family, true.

However I grew up in a small town in the 80s and being working class was part of a community where my peers (and in many cases their parents) were milking the welfare system for all it was worth. One friend even got the DHSS to get him a mortgage on a flat that he was renting, because he demonstrated the mortgage payments would be less than rent was.

Many could survive on welfare at that time, and, with a bit of cash work on the side, quiet a few had quite comfortable lifestyles in this pleasant coastal town. The only definite exceptions in my extended family were the Pakistanis who make up 50% of my family, who'd come to UK in the 1970s - they worked (and roped their kids into the work) all hours and had market stalls / shops etc. while being accused by white locals of stealing white people's jobs !!

[Loz]

malumbu Wrote:

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> Why the Daily Mail thread headline

> Why not put it in the positive - ethnic groups and immigrants doing better at school.

> And therefore improving quality of life.

> That would give other groups something to aspire to.

Really? Sounds a bit PC and defensive to me. Are you proposing some sort of rule that only certain groups can be put into negative headline and certain groups into positive headlines? If it was the other way around, that certain ethnic groups were doing poorly, would you be happy with headlines running with "White children are the best performing pupils" as being wonderfully aspirational?

[????]

There's a slightly contraversal argument (becuase some of it csn bre interpreted genetically if you're that way inclined) that the failure of this group is becuase there's less ethnic whites in the working class now as the most motivated moved up as society and opportunities opened up for them with no employment discrimination against them (unlike other ethnic groups) so you're left with a group that are less motivated and capable (either because of their 'make up' or their parental views on education's value or 'chaotic'/disfunctional homes). Lumpen innit.

[Mick Mac]

For all its obvious bad points, discrimination can have a powerful motivating effect on some sectors of society, who are only too aware that they have to be better qualified than their non ethnic contemporaries in order to get jobs and make a living. Their parents make them aware of this at a young age and utilise the arguments to motivate them.

[LondonMix]

Makes sense though it doesn't always work that way. I can't be sure but I don't believe most countries with significant immigration have a similar pattern.

[rodneybewes]

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Rodney - possibly it's just my extended family,

> true.

> However I grew up in a small town in the 80s and

> being working class was part of a community where

> my peers (and in many cases their parents) were

> milking the welfare system for all it was worth.

> One friend even got the DHSS to get him a mortgage

> on a flat that he was renting, because he

> demonstrated the mortgage payments would be less

> than rent was.

> Many could survive on welfare at that time, and,

> with a bit of cash work on the side, quiet a few

> had quite comfortable lifestyles in this pleasant

> coastal town. The only definite exceptions in my

> extended family were the Pakistanis who make up

> 50% of my family, who'd come to UK in the 1970s -

> they worked (and roped their kids into the work)

> all hours and had market stalls / shops etc. while

> being accused by white locals of stealing white

> people's jobs !!

Ah, I would probably agree back in the 80s. It was a grim time all in all but I always thought there was some hope back then that whatever befell you things would eventually turn around, recessions and unemployment would lift at some point and there was some safety net. And some people were able to game that.

For young people today there is very little of that kind of hope - a fair section of society will never own their own home in large parts of the country and are being driven into low-paid jobs that have very little prospect of turning into better paid ones over time. In fact they are being driven towards the lowest common denominator. Benefits have been drastically curtailed for the young so woe-betide any who are forced by circumstances out of their home. And at the end of it they can look forward to a pension that will just about keep them in a subsistence existence and evey then they will only be able to claim it later in life than previous generations. And that's if there is anywhere for them to live when they get there.

There are a lot of strong motivators for kids today not to fall into the abyss that is gaping before them - being of benefits doesn't look like some kind of shangri-la. Horribly, a lot of young people I know today, including those that have what would have been regarded as quite good jobs 20 years ago, look forward to the future with fear. Welcome to the 21st century, poor bastards.

[malumbu]

Just saying let's celebrate good news and use that to inspire others.

I could be dreadfully un-PC and talk about some of the bad influences on youff culture.

Not just discrimination that drives high performance of some groups. But there again I am glad my kids have a life outside of school.

[uncleglen]

Having worked in a school in the 90s and 2000s where there was little encouragement from parents for the white working class to accumulate GCSEs, let alone A levels, because their dads were 'white van man' and doing OK. Then we all know what happened to those kinds of jobs...thanks mainly to the middle classes wanting their building work etc done on the cheap

[KidKruger]

Not sure on the point you're making there but wouldn't it be reasonable to say at a more reasonable price, with quality work, by workers who turn-up on time on day agreed and don't mind doing a decent day's work ?

[red devil]

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Not sure on the point you're making there but

> wouldn't it be reasonable to say at a more

> reasonable price, with quality work, by workers

> who turn-up on time on day agreed and don't mind

> doing a decent day's work ?

This. Before the arrival of East European tradesmen, a lot of them highly skilled, you had British tradesmen taking the proverbial with the extortionate prices they charged, that's how the Harry Enfield 'Loadsamoney' character came about, they were creaming it in. Nowadays prices are indeed reasonable. The construction industry has always used immigrant labour, and will continue to do so...

[Otta]

And plenty of British builders were more than happy to illegally pay immigrants peanuts whilst they made plenty. Hypocrisy.

[Jeremy]

Yeah... think the Polish builders started doing well back in the 2000s because of the work ethic, not the price.