Man hitting & shouting at child on Camberwell Grove, Fri morning 18 Dec

[cinders]

I am appealing for any help with finding a man who is clearly physically and mentally abusing his child. They are African in appearance and this morning were walking up Camberwell Grove towards Dog Kennel Hill. He cut through the passageway past Grove Court, i think this is a block of flats but dont know the name of the cut-through. He was shouting at his child (she looks between 8-10). Hitting her on the back, and back of her head. Swearing and shouting she wasn't going to school. She was screaming every time he hit her and saying she wanted to go to school please Daddy.

I reported this to the police this morning as soon as i'd walked past them. If you see them please please call 999 and quote incident reference 2188 with the date of 18 December 2015. The police sent someone out but they couldn't find him. This child is in danger so please please help find him. Thank you.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

How awfully sad . I really hope the police manage to track them down .

[bornagain]

It's probable that she goes to Dog Kennel Hill School? Would it be worth reporting it to them?

[Angelina]

Southwark social services? but it would be quite hard without identifying them - although, it may be that someone else reported them?

Your information would reinforce that and might just help.

[cinders]

I don't think she goes to DKH - possibly one of the surrounding schools but I will enquire. I know DKH fairly well and have never seen them there. But I will mention it to them in case.

[cinders]

Good idea, I will contact them. thank you. This is so important - that child needs help.

[Blah Blah]

I think you've done the right thing. If the Police find them, they will automatically alert social services. It's quite possible they live in that vicinity too.

[Mustard]

Maybe the school on Grove Lane?

[Sue]

Thank you for reporting this and posting it on here. So many people would just have walked on by and thought "it's not my business" or similar, and so such abuse continues :(

It's very disturbing to see something like that.

Did you notice what they were wearing? I'm sure that wasn't the first thing on your mind in such a horrible situation, but it's possible it could help identify them.

[cinders]

Yes I reported what they were wearing - didn't get a good look as it was all so fast. But they were both dressed casually, she looked like she was in tracksuit bottoms and one leg was rolled up to her knee for some reason. He's about 5ft 9 or 10 and both slim -she was pretty thin. I don't know which school is on Grove Lane. I think i have driven past them before, around Alleyns and at that time I also saw him shouting and hitting a child but then it looked like a very young boy. So either it was the same child or there's more than one. It's all extremely upsetting and I can't stop thinking about what I heard and saw. There were other parents with kids around so someone else must have heard and seen them.

[SpringTime]

The child might be attending Lyndhurst School on Grove Lane. I have made the school aware of this.

[Penguin68]

It must be remembered that what we consider cultural norms now (things were very different 50 years ago) may not be cultural norms even now for other cultures. Of course, it is reasonable to expect that in the UK people must follow our cultural norms ? and we should absolutely not endorse or condone actions in the UK undertaken by people who would, in their own cultures, be entitled to act differently, but neither should we treat them perhaps with the same levels of shock and disgust which we would for people brought up in our culture who act contrary to it.

Children, in particular, are treated very differently outside Western European norms (and we must remember that Scandinavians would have looked at what we considered acceptable in child rearing very differently from us, only a few years ago).

What the OP has described seems horrid to us now, but an adult hitting a child would not have been seen as abnormal only a comparatively few years ago. When I was at school, corporal punishment was the norm. And any parent had a right to strike their child. Indeed, it was rather encouraged as a way of instilling discipline. ?Spare the rod, spoil the child? was once a genuine axiom (if actually, before even my time).

We know better now ? but many cultures would not agree with us.

[alice]

we are shocked to see a child being hit in public but children are being hit, neglected etc in the privacy of home - the culture thing is irrelevant.

but if we see we should act so well done op

[binkylilyput]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It must be remembered that what we consider

> cultural norms now (things were very different 50

> years ago) may not be cultural norms even now for

> other cultures. Of course, it is reasonable to

> expect that in the UK people must follow our

> cultural norms ? and we should absolutely not

> endorse or condone actions in the UK undertaken by

> people who would, in their own cultures, be

> entitled to act differently, but neither should we

> treat them perhaps with the same levels of shock

> and disgust which we would for people brought up

> in our culture who act contrary to it.

>

> Children, in particular, are treated very

> differently outside Western European norms (and we

> must remember that Scandinavians would have looked

> at what we considered acceptable in child rearing

> very differently from us, only a few years ago).

>

> What the OP has described seems horrid to us now,

> but an adult hitting a child would not have been

> seen as abnormal only a comparatively few years

> ago. When I was at school, corporal punishment was

> the norm. And any parent had a right to strike

> their child. Indeed, it was rather encouraged as a

> way of instilling discipline. ?Spare the rod,

> spoil the child? was once a genuine axiom (if

> actually, before even my time).

>

> We know better now ? but many cultures would not

> agree with us.

On the one hand yes, on the other hand tell that to Victoria Climbie......or girls who had female genital mutilation (also a cultural norm for some)

[Mick Mac]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> We know better now ? but many cultures would not

> agree with us.

F*** them. It's our rules here and we need to protect children from abusive parenting. In my view, even our laws are not strong enough. It seems children are the only people you can hit and get away with it - which is scandalous, parents must be more imaginative in directing children - its the biggest responsibility you will ever have and hitting children should be completely outlawed.

[Penguin68]

I think I wrote Of course, it is reasonable to expect that in the UK people must follow our cultural norms ? and we should absolutely not endorse or condone actions in the UK undertaken by people who would, in their own cultures, be entitled to act differently,

Despise the act, but perhaps don't despise the actor as much as you would someone brought up in our culture who thus should absolutely know better. I am quite happy to say that my culture is better (many would argue against that) - but I won't say that someone who has been brought up in another culture is inherently evil. Some, who are, are evil. Many don't understand why we would think our cultural norms better than theirs.

[alice]

child abuse is culture free. if not show me evidence to disprove that.

[James]

If we go down the pussy-footing cultural relativism route you end up with what happened in Rotherham. I'm with Mick Mac on this one. Sorry, this is the UK and we have laws here to protect children from abuse. If you don't like it, tough. I would not expect to go to another continent and expect them to match my cultural values so why the other way round?

[alice]

evidence not anecdote

[cinders]

I appreciate cultures are different. My own is different. However, if you see a man hitting a child so hard, repeatedly, so that she cries out each time, he is dragging her along the street shouting obscenities, she is begging to be allowed to go to school and he's telling her she can't, and the hitting continues - I really don't care what 'culture' he thinks he is following. He is a child abuser and must be treated as so.

[alice]

agree with that

[Otta]

I'm with MickMack.

BUT

Some of you are not reading Penguin68's post properly. It is not suggesting that this is in any way okay, just that somoeone from a different culture may not be clued up on how we do things here. They need to get clued up obviously, and that is something which probably needs looking at (education for the parents).

But drawing comparrisons top what has been described in the OP (which is awful and unacceptable) to what was done to Victoria Climbie is a pretty bloody big leap. And those that practice FGM probably couldn't give a shit what our laws say about it.

[cinders]

I completely appreciate not everyone acts in the same way and many people have differing boundaries / levels of acceptability. What happened this morning was completely unacceptable. The man was shouting (effing and blinding) to his daughter in a London accent. She had a London accent. They were not dressed in anything unusual. She was pleading to be abe to attend school so I assume they live here. There was nothing to suggest this was anything to do with culture and to be honest can we just focus on finding this bastard instead of even insinuating there may be a good reason for it.

[Huggers]

The cultural argument thing is bollocks and has been a real obstacle to social workers who were put off intervention because of this thinking- thinking that turns out to be more an invention of our stereotype assumptions than the actual reality of those cultures.a bit like the whole winterval fiasco that was a result of council overthinking rather than of anyone ever having objected to christmas. Well done Cinders and i hope they find this poor child!

[Mick Mac]

its about humanity - people love their children the same the world over - why anyone thinks hitting them is a good way to demonstrate love is beyond me. I just couldn't do it. And my children are far from perfect.