Very important issue for anyone with children in Year 5 or below

[James Barber]

Kingsdale is consulting on its admission policies for September 2017. Please see attached and this link for even more info.

http://www.kingsdalefoundationschool.org.uk/styled-6/page186/

Summary is three bands with lottery within each band NOT distance based from the school.

Please do take a look and submit your response to this admission policy for Attn: Mrs.Cowling [email protected]

Please do cc me and I'll collate the general feedback to this thread.

I hope others agree with me that distance based admissions - within or without banding - is better for our community and the environment than random lottery admissions.

[keane]

No James I don't agree - look at charter that is distance based and the catchment has shrunk dramatically and those that can afford to move near the school can get in but those living over 1,600 metres away this year couldnt get a place. At least with Kingsdale the lottery means that children have a chance of going to a good school but don't have to live right next to the school in another expensive area! I think if Charter do their admissions on distance then the lottery system at kingsdale at least gives other children a chance.

[landsberger]

For once, I agree with James. Distance based admissions are fairest.

I have zero confidence in Kingsdale's admissions processes anyway. The only way this school has "improved" has been by skewing the intake.

[peckhamprincess82]

Alot of people leaving around Dog Kennell Hill don't have alot of confidence in distance only measurement after happened with Wanley Road, it took a Court injunction to get Charter to include a the whole Champion Hill Council Estate who prior to the Court injunction used to exclude a large cohort of social housing.

[tomskip]

I wonder why they are consulting now?

[James Barber]

Hi Keane,

Lottery means only a small proportion of kids living on the adjacent very large council estate will get places there. So a lottery can exclude many from poorer families as appears the case for this school - however unintentional.

Public transport is also relatively poor there so proximity seems extra important. Lottery extends the catchment area dramatically and the persevered need to drive kids there and back.

Hi tomskip,

Not sure why this is being done over Christmas and New Year.

[tomskip]

James, I would start another thread about this entitled something like "Very important issue for anyone with children in Year 5 or below".

In my experience, most parents live in blissful ignorance of the fiasco that is secondary school admissions until they are right up against it.

[keane]

Lots of children also cycle to Kingsdale James and get trains. There is also lots of very expensive housing near to kingsdale as there is to Charter. At Charter it is often those who can afford to rent or buy in the ever shrinking catchment area that get in, buying a house in catchment for charter is becoming the 'few' to get into a state school! At least at kingsdale not every child has to live right next to the school to get in, maybe this balances out the fact that Charter does its admissions on distance.

[keane]

The new 'fee' not few sorry typo.

[tiddles]

if admissions were based on distance, very few East dulwich children would get in? It would be br most children

Who live the other side of the south circular?

[landsberger]

keane Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lots of children also cycle to Kingsdale James and

> get trains. There is also lots of very expensive

> housing near to kingsdale as there is to Charter.

> At Charter it is often those who can afford to

> rent or buy in the ever shrinking catchment area

> that get in, buying a house in catchment for

> charter is becoming the 'few' to get into a state

> school! At least at kingsdale not every child has

> to live right next to the school to get in, maybe

> this balances out the fact that Charter does its

> admissions on distance.

I always find it amazing that parents who live a long way from a school favour ballots and parents who live next to schools favour distance based.

Ballots - independently run (Kingsdale's isn't) are of course the "fairest" way of allocating places to schools if what you want a random mix of children. But is that what ED parents want ? The one council who tried this (Brighton) were beseiged by hysterical middle class parents who'd bought homes next to schools and didn't get in, and working class parents who had to send their kids on 2 buses across the authority area.

Very few Southwark children get into Kingsdale, ED or not.

[landsberger]

tomskip Wrote:

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> I wonder why they are consulting now?

They have to, that's the law

[keane]

What are the figures for Southwark children attending kingsdale then Landsberger? as I have children there and they have met a lot of children who are from Southwark though I don't have figures - and lots from other places to and it feels like a really good mix of kids from different areas and backgrounds in the true sense of a state school. My point is that to get into Charter these days you need to live less than 1,600 metres from the school that's not very far and hence the catchment area is increasingly limited to those who can afford housing in dulwich Village area. I think it's good to have another secondary school who take from a much broader area.

[tomskip]

Lotteries are ok if it is not just one school operating that system in an area where others do not. It just makes one fewer "choice" for local families.

The way to expand catchments for most schools is to do away with the automatic sibling link (and Kingsdale should certainly not have this automatic link, imo, given their lottery for places). Many secondary schools and even some primary schools have changed their order of priority to put siblings lower down the list. It is such a shame, even a bit scandalous, that the new Charter school is apparently going to buck the trend and have siblings as first priority, even above children with SENs.

Can you expand a bit Landsberger? How long is it since they last consulted? Do all schools have to consult on their admissions and how often?

[intexasatthe moment]

Below is from

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/389388/School_Admissions_Code_2014_-_19_Dec.pdf

1.42 When changes are proposed to admission arrangements, all

admission authorities must consult on their admission arrangements

(including any supplementary information form) that will apply for admission

applications the following school year. Where the admission arrangements

have not changed from the previous year there is no requirement to consult,

subject to the requirement that admission authorities must consult on their

admission arrangements at least once every 7 years, even if there have been

no changes during that period.

1.43 For admission arrangements determined in 2015 for entry in

September 2016, consultation must be for a minimum of 8 weeks and must

be completed by 1 March 2015. For all subsequent years, consultation must

last for a minimum of 6 weeks and must take place between 1 October and

31 January in the determination year.

So my reading is that yes all maintained schools have to consult when changing arrangements or once during 7 years if no change .

[crescent]

Hmmm. Interesting. I live on the very very edge of Southwark, have an SE26 postcode, and the kids attended/attend a Lewisham primary. (Kids are y7, y5 and nursery).

Kingsdale is a 15-20 min walk away. Perfect. Our closest secondary school by far. Just a bit further than our walk to primary school. Despite all the negative hype and slightly cult-ish HT's speech, we all really liked it when we started the school tours 2 years ago. It was DC1's favourite out of the 6. But while it is our closest school by far, he had the same odds to get in as into grammar school. So we opted for grammar school, as hard work could shorten the odds, but Kingsdale's admissions felt like relying on a lottery ticket to pay the mortgage.

And I agree that a lottery system is the fairest: but only if every school operates like that. So someone in north Dulwich can agonise about whether to pick charter or kingsdale - but I don't have the same luxury. My friend wanted Kingsdale as 1st choice, 20 min walk, but got forest hill (a lovely school but 40 min walk, 2 unreliable buses), while kids from Streatham and Clapham are schlepping to Kingsdale.

I am not sure how reliable the current Kingsdale lottery is: a couple years ago there was an article in a local paper saying not a single child from the council estate next door to the school got in.

It is difficult, and I guess nobody wants a situation like Charter etc, pricing people out. But Forest Hill/ Sydenham school have just stopped admissions on banding, essentially making this distance too. So why can't Kingsdale?

[minder]

Just looked at the Kingsdale admission policy and got to section 1.3 at the beginning and lost track. So many capital letters where not needed and no commas or full stops in the whole paragraph and came out non the wiser what they were going on about!

[Curmudgeon]

keane Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> No James I don't agree - look at charter that is

> distance based and the catchment has shrunk

> dramatically and those that can afford to move

> near the school can get in but those living over

> 1,600 metres away this year couldnt get a place.

> At least with Kingsdale the lottery means that

> children have a chance of going to a good school

> but don't have to live right next to the school in

> another expensive area! I think if Charter do

> their admissions on distance then the lottery

> system at kingsdale at least gives other children

> a chance.

I agree with this, if the lottery was fair and independent...despite our eldest securing a place on scholarship and doing very well there I have always found the admissions policy vague

[LondonMix]

*Tomskip* Primary schools have to have sibling priority. Can you even begin to imagine the logistics for a parent trying to get too young children to different primary schools? In secondary school it doesn't matter as much as children are old enough to make their own way.

Also, its worth stating that the lottery at Kingsdale is overseen by an independent party not employed or linked to the school in anyway. Therefore, those stating otherwise should amend their comments or provide some justification for claiming the process isn't independent.

Kingsdale already operates a lottery so it would be more helpful to highlight what is changing in the policy. From quickly reading through the information, the only thing that appears to be changing is that children of permanently employed staff are being given priority admission now ahead of the general lottery. I'm not how the school is justifying this change.

Like others have said, a lottery is fairest policy. When there is a shortage of local places, circumscribing the lottery to within a reasonable commuting distance (2 miles) like other schools have done, makes sense. Many schools who operate lotteries in Southwark, create inner and outer catchments in which at least 60% of the places (when oversubscribed) are allocated to those living within a few miles of the school and the rest of the places are allocated to everyone else.

[tomskip]

LondonMix - just because I mentioned that some primary schools are doing away with siblings being an absolute priority does not mean that I agree with it! Yes, of course I can imagine the difficulties that would cause. What a patronising comment.

[LondonMix]

Tomskip, read your post. It is hardly unreasonable for someone the feel you might be supporting such a policy. If that is not the case, just clarify what you said without taking such offence and being rude.

[peckhamprincess82]

Sadly, I am EXTREMELY cynical about any admissions policy of any school. As far as I can see, any policy can be skewered. As many people have pointed out, it is extremely common in the past for parents who can afford to, to buy houses near a good secondary school. Many of us know parents who have done this and have successfully secured their child a place at Charter. The more people who do this, the more house prices in the immediate area rise and the more the catchment shrinks even further (as more people with secondary school age children move closer and closer to secure a place). Kingsdale admissions are very difficult to understand yes but make no mistake, should the school move to distance only, the catchment would shrink and shrink and shrink. Practically, ED residents would be unlikely to benefit - although I can imagine that residents in Gypsy Hill would benefit greatly. The residents immediately near the Kingsdale in leafy Dulwich the are likely to be sending their children to Dulwich Prep or Dulwich College so they are likely not to be bothered!