Good piece re sleep

[Fuschia]

http://www.drjen4kids.com/soap%20box/sleep%20stuff.htm

[snowboarder]

I'm in a big old STRESS about sleep again now. I'd kind of convinced myself we were managing - just - but with talk of 2 hr lunchtime naps in cots etc (other post) and a weekend where sleep was v bad - well last night I couldn't sleep (yep the irony is not lost on me) as too stressed. And today's weather blows my sleep in buggy routine - so emphasises my problem.

And this article - baby is (finally) upstairs alone on his tummy with a teddy in the cot. So not only do we have bad sleep (some say my fault for being softie/cuddling/singing/rocking) but am damaging him in different ways and bad things could happen. There's just too much to read and too many conflicting philosophies.

I can't deal with any of this until after christmas as too much going on but I'm in SERIOUS get sleep sorted in the new year....sob....watch this space.

[Pickle]

You're not hurting him, you're his Mummy and you know what's best for your baby :)

I'm a big fan of comfort objects - son has a stinky horrible dog which he started showing an interest in around 5 months old, god help me if it ever gets lost (although due to my embarrassment at the state of said dog, he never leaves the cot!). As soon as he's in his sleeping bag he sticks it's tail in his mouth. Dog is not machine washable, has been sucked all night and during lunchtime sleeps for the last 2.5 years - doesn't take much to imagine just how horrible it is!!

Daughter has a plain white muslin (learnt my lesson from 1st time round) - I have 12, they all look the same, and I can wash them (tu).

Enjoy the time to yourself while the little one is asleep... and if all else fails remember that with every child comes a point where it's impossible to drag them out of bed in the morning (OK, probably not till they're a teenager, but at least there's a light at the end of the tunnel!) x

[sillywoman]

Just as an aside to the thread. Re comfort objects: 12yr old son, 5'4", broad shouldered & deep voiced asked me this weekend to pack me a bag for his sleepover at a friends house, and instructed me firmly not to forget "Rabby and Blankie". Rabby being a one eyed Peter rabbit he's had since he was 4 months old, and Blankie being his manky last bit of baby cellular blanket. Yes, we like comfort objects - Awwwwww!

[Fuschia]

snowboarder Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm in a big old STRESS about sleep again now.

> >

> And this article - baby is (finally) upstairs

> alone on his tummy with a teddy in the cot. So

> not only do we have bad sleep (some say my fault

> for being softie/cuddling/singing/rocking) but am

> damaging him in different ways and bad things

> could happen. There's just too much to read and

> too many conflicting philosophies.

I don't read that article as a criticism at all... just the opposite... it says that the be all and end all of "bbaies settling themselves" may be unrealistic and small babies need parenting to sleep.. as you have done... nothing wrong with moving to self soothing techniques as they get bigger, but don't blame yourself for having a small baby that doesn't just drop off by itself.. it's normal!!

>

> I can't deal with any of this until after

> christmas as too much going on but I'm in SERIOUS

> get sleep sorted in the new year....sob....watch

> this space.

[helena handbasket]

Oh Snowboarder, I'm sorry that this is stressing you out. I hope my advice hasn't contributed to your stress, it wasn't meant to. I really do know what your position feels like and EVERONE'S an expert. Even my middle aged gay male friends had advice for me! :) Can you believe it?

I think only you can decide if the sleep stuff is a problem for you. If you are a sleep deprived maniac (like I was) then there's your answer. If you feel like you are still at least somewhat in your comfort zone, then that is fine too and there is no point in getting stressed by anyone else's stories or experiences. I really can only speak for myself, and I was in hell. Other people have babies who wake in the night but still manage to get just enough sleep to not lose their minds completely. Just for perspective, the nights that I got more than four hours of sleep (very rare) I felt like a new woman (obviously not in a row but if I counted up the hours in between wakings), THAT'S how extreme my situation was.

FYI, that article said more body contact meant less colic (wrong!) and formula fed babies sleep longer (wrong!) so I'm not convinced anybody really has any idea how these little guys work. As someone trained in the social sciences, I eventually turned my attention from the never ending theory out there and just looked at methods of approaching it. Less talk more action, as they say! :)

[helena handbasket]

And sillywoman I love that story about your son.

[Fuschia]

helena handbasket Wrote:

>

> FYI, that article said more body contact meant

> less colic (wrong!) and formula fed babies sleep

> longer (wrong!)

Actually, I'm afraid that's true, as far as I can tell. Just read a very interesting study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1201415/

and the key features affecting self-soothing (if you want to develop self-soothing, of course) are:

the amount of time you take the baby from the cot (obvious really)

the extent to which the baby exhibits "quiet sleep"

waiting longer to respond to cries

"The development of sleep-wake patterns and self soothing

Sleep-wake state development.

Descriptive data on the nighttime sleep-wake variables are presented in Table 2. Results of the repeated measures GLM procedure revealed that the longest sleep period (LSP) increased significantly from 1 to 3 months, then leveled off for the remainder of the first year of life, ...Conversely, the number of nighttime awakenings per night dropped sharply from 1 to 3 months, then remained relatively stable from 3 to 12 months, ... The percent of time that infants spent out of the crib similarly decreased sharply from 1 to 3 months, then remained relatively constant from 3 to 12 months, ... The nightly proportion of time that infants were awake in their cribs, however, did not change significantly across the first year. The percent of time infants spent in active sleep decreased, F..., while quiet sleep percent increased, ... from 1 to 12 months. Finally, total sleep time during the night increased linearly, F... It should be noted that all of these variables refer to nighttime sleep only. Although total 24-hour sleep decreases across the first year of life, sleep becomes consolidated such that nighttime sleep actually increases. As sleep periods consolidate, the percent of time out of the crib is reduced while the percent of time awake in the crib remains relatively constant. All of these results replicate previous findings on sleep-wake state development for healthy, solitary-sleeping infants.

...

Development of self-soothing.

The percentage of self-soothed awakenings increased in a linear fashion from 1 to 12 months of age. At 1 month, infants put themselves back to sleep following 27.6% of their awakenings. In contrast, by 12 months of age, infants self-soothed for 46.4% of their awakenings ... A converse relationship exists for non-self-soothing awakenings which decreased proportionately with age. Remarkably, by one year of age, more than half of the infant awakenings still were non-self-soothing, requiring parental intervention."

[helena handbasket]

Hmmm, well that makes my son yet another parenting mystery I guess.

[Fuschia]

"Individual differences in the development of sleep-wake states and self-soothing

As indicated by the relatively large standard deviations in the sleep-wake and self-soothing variables (Table 2), individual differences clearly exist in their development. To further inspect these individual differences, the sleep-wake and self-soothing variables were examined using within-subjects regression. The resulting mean intercepts, standardized slopes, and percentage of infants with increasing and decreasing slopes are presented in Table 3. These results show, for example, that the longest sleep period increases over the first year for most children (as illustrated by a positive slope), but for some children it remains relatively constant or even decreases. The greatest amount of variability occurred for the percent of self-soothed awakenings (SS%), with 56.6% of the sample increasing and 43.4% decreasing across time. Thus, despite the significant linear increase found for SS% in the GLM analysis presented above, a substantial number of individual infants did not follow this pattern.

"

[helena handbasket]

Not quite sure where this thread is going?

[Fuschia]

Just some interesting stuff I've come across... I'm on a twins forum where everyone seems to be having trouble atm and those two articles caught my eye.. one about whether it's realistic to expect a baby to selfsoothe.. the other is a longtitudinal study into factors affecting precisely that, a baby's ability to self soothe at 12m... which includes some interesting statistics about patterns of change in sleep/wakings )and many babies don't conform to "the norm" anyway!

I just thought it was interesting reading.

[snowboarder]

Fuschia - am too impatient (stupid?) to read the quotes - can you paraphase for me?!?:)

I was just kind of saying that you think right, ok, in order for sleep to be good for me and baby, he has to learn to get himself to sleep. Methods for this are bit hardcore and involve effort and upset, but pay off. Naps are important. Right - psyche self up. Then I read fuschias link and think OH NO - it's all about sleeping together and it's mean to leave him in the cot on his own and OH NO he's on his tummy in the cot. So it's hard to know what to do - because they all make sense!!

4hrs - yeah - pretty good night if you get that!! Not interested in teddy/comforters. Can't even find his THUMB at night - and it's in his mouth most of the day! I put a little sophie giraffe pram toy on the cot ages ago - and now he just gets obsessed by it and it distracts him - but when I took it away he spent the whole night exploring the cot looking for sophie!!

Don't know where thread going either...I'm just rambling/putting forward the comments of a confused (tired) mummy!

[Fuschia]

The first article is about.. can we expect a small baby to selfsoothe? Kind of an antidote to all the books wher eit is the absolute holy grail of parenting...strikes a real chord with me as I am definitely in the cosleeping camp...

The second article is a study into what factors at 3m predict a baby who will be a "good self-soother" at 12m...

which are:

* the amount of time you take the baby from the cot (obvious really)

* the extent to which the baby exhibits "quiet sleep"

* waiting longer to respond to cries

...these factors m ay not suit your parenting style though.. which brings you back in a circle, as you say... I think anecdotal evidence does show that not rushinf to pick the baby up, sleeping with it another oom etc etc do have an effect on self-soothing, but perhaps many of us would rather be super responsive and risk having to soothe at night...

and in any case while most babies at a year do show an increase in their longest period of continuous sleep, for many this is not the case (or the opposite applies)

[Fuschia]

So.. I'm not peddling any answers.. just some different thoughts that are r\ther unfashionable

[alieh]

Snowboarder, the times that I had my lowest points re: sleep were when I stopped thinking about whether I could cope (even if just barely) and started comparing to what other people were doing. That is when it would get so bad that in my sleep deprived state I would almost be angry at my baby for still waking 2,3,4 times a night.

Try to only focus on what your baby is doing right now and whether you can live with it. You may eventually get to a point where you really can't live with it, and then you can try something like what helena described on the other thread. But you really have to be at that "can't live with it" point because convincing your baby to feed less at night, or nap in his cot, or whatever will probably involve some tears, even if you are there comforting him the whole time.

You may find that, as long as you IGNORE what all other babies are doing and just focus on whether you're coping with what you've got, you don't ever need to do any kind of "sleep training". But if you do want to "try something" at some point, lots of us have been there and can help.

Also, have you ever looked at the Baby Whisperer forums? I don't really rate her books, but there are really helpful other mums on the website who have helped me get my baby napping better at home (mostly just suggesting changes to nap timing/routines). If you're desperate you could try posting there and see if anyone has any ideas? http://www.babywhispererforums.com/

My son sleeps on his tummy mostly with a stuffed toy and [shock horror] even a cot bumper thingie around the cot. He has been in his own room since 3 months. He has hated co-sleeping since birth, except for the odd snoozy cuddle in the early morning.

Both of our babies are well outside the SIDS risk zone. Just ignore any advice/articles that make you feel bad about your baby and what you're doing, and only read things that confirm what you already know!

Oh, and I know no babies under the age of 1 who have that elusive 2 hour nap after lunch. I'm sure they exist but I don't know any of them. Think that comes with time for most babies (maybe 18 mos or so?) - I'm still waiting!

[alieh]

helena, I was exactly like you. Celebrating nights with 4 hours broken sleep. When it got to the point that I thought I had PND and was about to make an appointment with my GP, but then realised I just needed a few hours of broken sleep, I had to take action. Did exactly as you describe, sat by the cot soothing instead of feeding at night (well, actually, made my DH do it). That was at about 8 months - I was at breaking point and am in awe of people who go on so much longer. Still have lots of dodgy nights (he's been asleep less than 3 hours tonight and already been up screaming twice...b*&*dy teeth) but enough decent nights that I feel like a human rather than angry zombie, albeit a tired human.

[alieh]

meant "needed a few hours of UNbroken sleep" obviously.

duh...clearly still sleep deprived!

[The Nappy Lady]

I just want to add to this - the bleedin obvious, but anyway....every baby is very, very different, and Snowboarder (and others) it isn't you doing stuff wrong that makes them what they are, it is just 'how they are'.

The reason this is all so hard is because this is not one 'magic' answer to the whole sleep issue.

My first slept 10 to 12 hours a night 10 weeks old (gosh I say that now and can't believe it). She was in her own room from 1 week old, never co-slept and has always been a deep, deep sleeper.

Thankfully we always put it down to luck, no anything clever we did, and knew we wouldn't be so lucky again....so no surprise that our second is still waking at least once a night at 14 months old, still semi co-sleeping (was full time for the first few months), and I can't really imagine a time when I will ever get an entire nights sleep again.

As a parent of 2 though, the worst is when you have a night with both of them up for various reasons...thankfully rare, but last night I didn't get more than 2 hours sleep in one go thanks to various night time wanderings.

Molly

[helena handbasket]

alieh, good point about going from zombie to just really really tired. If you can get just that little bit of extra sleep, it's amazing the effect on your ability to cope. I , like you, thought I had PND but realized that I was just beyond exhausted.

I also really liked what you said about comparing babies, it's so true. It seemed at the time that all of my friends with same aged babies were doing okay, and many were actually sleeping quite well. I think that knowing this was almost as harmful to me as the actual sleep deprivation. It did sometimes make me angry. And I started to take it personally. I really had to learn to filter out the messages I was getting because I was going crazy.

Snowboarder, at the end of the day I think it's worth remembering that everything you are doing is out of love and if you need to put your baby down for a bit to get a grip on things it doesn't mean you that you are cold or mean or love your baby less than the next person. It just means you are human and it is clear that your little guy gets loads of love and affection and care. I know plenty of people who have gone to extremes in both directions, and I can't honestly say there is any difference in how happy or well adjusted any of their kids are. There are as many experts out there declaring one theory over another, and if any of it was conclusive we wouldn't need to debate this. I think the only thing that really messes up a child is emotional neglect, and clearly baby SB is not in danger of this. I think I have a point here, bit of a ramble, but oh yeah...... my point is you won't break him or mess him up if you just do whatever feels right. By all means, hold him and snuggle him and inhale that delicious baby smell as long and as much as you can. But alieh said, only you know what you can live with, or what you need for that matter. Whatever you do, that little boy will be fine! :)

[randomv]

Forgive me if I'm being dim, but the article seems to be questioning the veracity of parents' claims that their babies sleep through on the basis that we all wake up several times a night anyway. Isn't this just nitpicking at semantics to try and prove a point? We all wake up several times, and put ourselves back to sleep. As adults we feel better and more refreshed next day when the gaps between these sleep cycles are short, usually so short that we aren't aware of them. Doesn't it therefore stand to reason that babies and toddlers will also feel better having had the same?

I'm no advocate of leaving young babies to "cry it out" but some babies do cry because they are overtired and they want to be asleep, not because they want or need to be held or fed or have a comforter. I definitely had one of those from about 8 months of age and HE is much happier now that he is getting consistent sleep (including the 2 hours post-lunch!)

Not trying to knock any style of parenting here..have tried several approaches and found the one that works for our family which is all we can do at the end of the day.

[curlykaren]

oh dear snowboarder...that is exactly the new year resolution I made to myself while lying in bed wide awake at three thirty this morning. After nearly 11 months of very broken sleep I have become a chronic insomniac and what little sleep I do get is filled with the most bizzare dreams. When you crack the sleep riddle next year then let me know how? x

[snowboarder]

randomv Wrote:

> I'm no advocate of leaving young babies to "cry it

> out" but some babies do cry because they are

> overtired and they want to be asleep, not because

> they want or need to be held or fed or have a

> comforter.

I'm pretty sure this is why my baby cries - especially when he wakes up from a nap (30 mins!!) he knows he doesn't want to be awake - but he CAN'T get back to sleep...so I end up doing whatever to get back to sleep. And so we continue!!

It is dispiriting when you hear that all your nct mates are celebrating their 7-7 sleeping babies. I don't even want to talk about it with them as I feel embarrassed (clearly not so on here!) and actually a bit ashamed - like I'm failing.

Thanks hh and alieh for support. x

[hanstands]

Really enjoyed that article Fushcia, thanks for posting. Like most Mums who have posted responses I am also not getting much sleep with my 14month old and have tried lots of approaches to getting Fella to sleep longer to no avail. However, most of the time I have managed with it latterly because DH helps by getting up with wee man in the morning and giving breakfast etc then i would get up a bit later and take over having had an extra hour or so on my own. However, I know that most Mums don't have it this good and I deeply sympathise with your exhaustion. However, this may interest some of you - a few months ago I came across a leaflet in Dulwich libray that said 'Want to improve your sleep?' naturally I said, 'yes' and it led me to a free course that Southwark do to help folk sleep better - I did this course about two weeks ago, my baby is still waking the usual 3-6 times every night [more so at the mo as he has Croup - nasty illness] BUT I've had the best nights sleep in over a year from what I learned on this one-day course: incase anyone is keen [and I know it won't suit everyone] :http://www.southwarkpct.nhs.uk/a/4965

The course doesn't give any info on baby sleeping or any kind of parenting advice but I simply applied alot of the general tactics to my sleep and worked around the baby waking and has made quite a significant difference.

[alieh]

snowboarder, I always find it a bit odd that people you know in real life (except for my EDF mums...hi sleepy ladies!) have babies who sleep 7-7, yet anyone you "chat" to on internet forums (here, mumsnet, etc.) seem to be having the exact same experience as me (i.e. baby 12 months, sleeps through sometimes, still has terrible nights sometimes when teething, ill, a couple of times a week just for kicks, etc.).

I think that people just don't go into the whole truth when they talk about sleep. Not necessarily lying, but they aren't going to give you a catalogue of information - i.e. two Wednesdays ago he was up for 3 hours in the middle of the night, no idea why. Then last week he woke 3 times before I went to bed, no idea why. Etc., etc.

It is safe to say that more than half of babies under 12 months are still waking at least once or twice every night on a good night (per No Cry Sleep Solution). Probably lots more times. And that the vast majority of babies will go through a period of truly shocking sleep - maybe they go 7-7 until 18 months and then don't sleep for two years.

So DO NOT compare and just get yourself on here and onto the Mumsnet Sleep talk board if you want the truth!