Kids in restaurants..

[HelBel65]

A thread on the main board made me decide to post here on a similar subject, one I know has been debated at length on the EDF but each situation differs.

Went for a spontaneous Friday night curry last week, to one of our popular local establishments. Three of us rocked up around 6.30pm, the place was quiet. 3 tables away was a family, 2 adults, 2 kids of around 4 years old. Didn't think anything at first but gradually the kids got more & more vocal. Tired, I guess. It got to the point that we kept having to stop our conversation because of the noise. It was 8pm by this point. What really struck me was the lack of any real effort by the parents to keep the noise down, given that this was now 8pm on a Friday night in an adult environment. There was the odd ineffectual 'shhh' but that was about it.

When they left shortly after 8, I spoke to one of the waiters (the manager, I was told, had gone out) I said that our evening had been badly interrupted by the noise, and asked if they (the staff) had noticed it. He said no, and that I should have complained at the time. I pointed out that this would have been impossible to do discreetly given where we were sitting, and would therefore have been embarrassing all round. He just shrugged.

I found this rather odd. My feeling is that the establishment concerned should be aware of awkward situations and deal with them tactfully, rather than waiting for complaints. I personally like this restaurant enough not to let one incident put me off, but the 2 friends I was with won't be going back, which just seems like an unnecessary shame all round. Would be curious to know what others think.

[edhistory]

Should have spoken to/with the parents while you had the chance?

[HelBel65]

edhistory Wrote:

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> Should have spoken to/with the parents while you

> had the chance?

Really? How is that preferable to the waiters doing it? Just seems unnecessarily awkward to me.

[Mick Mac]

630-8 is probably just about perfect time for young parents to enjoy a curry with kids and still feel they are not interrupting evening diners, who I would say should be entitled to a child free space from around 8.

So from 6-8 I'd say you are eating early and expect same environment as say afternoon. So family-friendly dining ok at that time.

Question then is only if they were misbehaving and only the people there at the time can answer that.

[HelBel65]

I certainly don't have a problem with kids in restaurants per se - my issue was with the noise and the lack of effort by the parents.

[Mick Mac]

It's tricky. Especially if you are not a parent yourself. Talking loudly, that is subjective. If the children were seated and otherwise behaving well then it's difficult to say what is the right volume for a conversation. The parents presumably were much closer to this "noise" and were not disturbed by it.

[KidKruger]

Interesting situation.

I was in a restaurant on Wednesday evening, something similar happened.

There was a table of 3, 2 men and 1 woman, sat a couple of tables away. They'd obviously had a few drinks and their conversation was frequently loud with huge guffaw outbursts. For long periods my friends and I had to halt our chats and wait to continue.

Is noise in a restaurant from children less valid than noise from adults ?

If not, then is your problem actually with kids rather than noise / distraction levels ?

i.e. If you'd had to stop your conversation because of adults, would you have started a thread about adults in restaurants ?

It's a Friday night after all, so some noise surely is to be expected - especially in a curry house, so who cares who it's from !?

[Blah Blah]

Good post KidK. Next weekend we have a family gathering for a parent's 70th in a restaurant. There will be at least six kids, among 10 adults who will all probably be drinking. There will be noise :)

[HelBel65]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> It's tricky. Especially if you are not a parent

> yourself. Talking loudly, that is subjective.

I'm not a parent and nor are my friends which almost certainly influences our response to those situations, admittedly. But this was not talking, it was shouting and screaming.

KidKruger Wrote:

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> There was a table of 3, 2 men and 1 woman, sat a couple of tables away. They'd obviously had a few drinks and their conversation was frequently loud with huge guffaw outbursts. For long periods my friends and I had to halt our chats and wait to continue.

> Is noise in a restaurant from children less valid than noise from adults ?

> If not, then is your problem actually with kids rather than noise / distraction levels ?

> i.e. If you'd had to stop your conversation because of adults, would you have started a thread about adults in restaurants ?

Well there's a difference isn't there - the people you describe sound rather insensitive and annoying, but as adults were entirely in control of their own behaviour. They chose to behave like that - we all do, now and again. Small children don't know any better so they (and their restaurant neighbours) are entirely dependent on their parents to make sure their behaviour isn't impacting negatively on anyone else. That didn't happen in this case. So, to reiterate, the noise was the problem for us, not their presence there. Seen and not heard? Sometimes, yes please! :)

Blah Blah - Hope you have a great time - I have no doubt everyone will be impeccably behaved! ;-)

[Louisa]

If it is noise we are talking about, then yes you will have drinking and insensitive people regardless of age in restaurants. I don't think you can police parents taking kids into restaurants after a certain time either. It's more about a cultural shift I would suggest. Years ago a parent would never take their kids out after a certain time of night at the risk of offending other diners, simple as that really. It seems, particularly in the last 10/15 years, parents (in general) seem to assume that we all want to hear and be involved in their offsprings temper tantrums and running around in a public setting. I've seen it with my own eyes, mothers in groups allowing children to run around and cause havoc in restaurants and pubs, it's not on. Manners cost nothing.

Louisa.

[HelBel65]

Agree with some of that Louisa, particularly the entitled attitude of some parents, but this isn't intended as a debate on whether kids should be out after a certain time, or taken to certain establishments. That's been done many times (and some of my best friends are parents ;-)) Well behaved kids are welcome wherever and whenever, as far as I'm concerned. Was just surprised that the restaurant's approach was a shrug of the shoulder and an 'it's your problem' attitude, even when I mentioned that my friends were unlikely to return.

The real fault however, lay with the parents IMHO.

[Otta]

The staff may not have found it too loud, they weren't sitting chatting so wouldn't have had their conversation disturbed by the noise. As such it seems harsh to expect them to deal with an issue which they may not have been aware was an issue to you.

[HelBel65]

Fair enough, but this was 2 kids shouting at the tops of their voices in a quiet space....difficult to miss...

Maybe I'm being naive but I would expect restaurant management to want their customers to be happy, not just with the food but with the surroundings too, and therefore make it their business to notice when all is not well.

[Jeremy]

As Louisa suggests, it's a question of cultural expectations. In some other countries it's quite normal for very young kids to still be up in the evening, and taken to restaurants. But in the UK.. despite the undeniable shift L talks about... I think we still expect restaurants to be adult environments after 7:30 or so.

While I agree it's hard for restaurants to enforce, I think a 4 yr old in a restaurant at 8pm is pushing the social norms a bit.

[Louisa]

I have been on holiday in Spain many times and I agree entirely that continental attitudes to kids in late night surroundings is very different to here in the UK. The old school British attitude (regardless of class), was that kids should be seen and not heard (unless it's in a specific area of the restaurant/pub) and before a specified time in the evening (when a restaurant and pub should be the preserve of adults). I think alongside this cultural shift (which is age based in terms of the parents more so than ever), there has also been a specific ED 'nappy valley' phenomenon going on here too. Many local businesses now rely on the yummy pound, and often times they rely on the parent and child/family custom as much/if not more than they do the exclusive adult market. Management will inevitably be more lenient to this group because end of the day it's their bread and butter.

Louisa.

[HelBel65]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> But in the UK..

> despite the undeniable shift L talks about... I

> think we still expect restaurants to be adult

> environments after 7:30 or so.

By and large I would probably agree, but actually don't feel that strongly unless the behaviour and noise level affects everyone else. That's plain selfish, and bad parenting IMO. The adults KidKruger encountered the other night were probably brought up similarly ;-)

There was no question that the staff knew we were being disturbed, I caught their eye enough times. A quiet word from them would seem the obvious thing to me. They do run the place after all, and it would nicely de-personalise an awkward situation between fellow diners.

[Otta]

But they "left shortly after 8". If they came in to sit down at 7:30 - 8, I'd be the first to think WTF. But if they're finishing their meal and settling up around 8 that's fair enough.

I do agree that parents should keep their kids reasonably quiet, and for all I know these parents could be the most selfish people in. London. But from the OP, Isee no problems with times or response of the staff.

[Otta]

Sorry my post was response to Jeremy.

[Otta]

HelBel65 Wrote:

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> Fair enough, but this was 2 kids shouting at the

> tops of their voices in a quiet space....difficult

> to miss...

>

> Maybe I'm being naive but I would expect

> restaurant management to want their customers to

> be happy, not just with the food but with the

> surroundings too, and therefore make it their

> business to notice when all is not well.

Possible they're regular customers and good spenders so management don't want to upset them? I have no idea of course, but there could be any number of perspectives that differed from yours in this situation.

[HelBel65]

Otta Wrote:

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> HelBel65 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Fair enough, but this was 2 kids shouting at

> the

> > tops of their voices in a quiet

> space....difficult

> > to miss...

> >

> > Maybe I'm being naive but I would expect

> > restaurant management to want their customers

> to

> > be happy, not just with the food but with the

> > surroundings too, and therefore make it their

> > business to notice when all is not well.

>

>

> Possible they're regular customers and good

> spenders so management don't want to upset them? I

> have no idea of course, but there could be any

> number of perspectives that differed from yours in

> this situation.

True. Just a shame that the idea of a quiet word could potentially cause that level of offence.

[Louisa]

Tbh if I ran a business and I had regular customers in (be they family, couples or even individuals), I might think twice about pulling them up on something like this. I'd rather lose the custom of some irregular visitors over well paying regulars who I know will be back to spend again. Harsh, but true (if that's the case).

Louisa.

[HelBel65]

Louisa Wrote:

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> Tbh if I ran a business and I had regular

> customers in (be they family, couples or even

> individuals), I might think twice about pulling

> them up on something like this. I'd rather lose

> the custom of some irregular visitors over well

> paying regulars who I know will be back to spend

> again. Harsh, but true (if that's the case).

>

> Louisa.

Yes, I did wonder if this was the case and of course I can understand that. Just a shame staff had to choose.....my friends and I are big spenders when in the mood!

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/drink/smileys-drinking-beer.gif

[Mick Mac]

I used to not have particularly high expectations of behaviour in a curry house. I wonder if the parents thought they were in a relatively relaxed environment, unaware of stressed fellow customers.

Make a complaint at the time either to the staff or the family directly.

[HelBel65]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> Make a complaint at the time either to the staff

> or the family directly.

Awkward convos when I'm out having fun aren't really my thing. Was just interested in others' thoughts really.

[DulwichFox]

Would never get Curry Club members becoming boisterous and loud would we Mick..

Foxy :)