Southwark Plans for Camberwell Old & New Cemeteries.

[Blanche Cameron]

Attached is the summary page of the Council's report - with notes.

Southwark cut down a hillside of trees - the Council can call it scrub - without doing tests to see if that would increase the risk of flooding to the houses below the cemetery. They did not do tests to see if the suggested flood protection measures (including a storage tank on top of graves) could even be supported by the ground conditions. They may not even be able to do the tests as it may mean disturbing graves.

See attached photo of mountain of wood chips.

We are meeting 7:30pm Tuesday 7 February at the Herne Tavern - everyone welcome.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries

Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966

[email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods

Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

[Blanche Cameron]

We issued a statement today regarding burial costs.

"Austerity-Strapped Southwark Blowing Millions on Burial Plots"

Southwark is spending millions subsidising ?new? burial plots over the dead in the Camberwell Cemeteries. Subsidies per plot are at least ?1,000 and quite possibly ?3,000 or more in real terms.

You can read it here: http://savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/unaccountable-burial-service/4593627679

Update:

First, we are still waiting for the Church to allow Southwark to continue work on the Underhill Road side of Camberwell Old Cemetery and to start on One Tree Hill in Camberwell New Cemetery. At least 26 trees will be cut down, and possibly more, for 145 burial plots.

Second, the Council has said they will make application any day now for 1000 burial plots on the Old Nursery Site next to Honor Oak Rec on the Honor Oak Nature Corridor.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries

Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966

[email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods

Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

[Abe_froeman]

What is the "Honor Oak Nature Corridor"?

[Penguin68]

An invention

[Abe_froeman]

I've never heard of the Honor Oak Nature Corridor and almost all reference to it on google links back to "Save Southwark Woods"

If it really is something that has been made up it makes me wonder what else is.

[nxjen]

It's like no one had heard of Southwark Woods until a couple of years ago!

[Sue]

nxjen Wrote:

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> It's like no one had heard of Southwark Woods

> until a couple of years ago!

I'm thinking of renaming my house Sue Mansions (or maybe Sue Hall) and forming a pressure group to get it Grade 2 Listed.

Or Grade 1 if I can get a big enough group to make enough noise.

[Nigello]

FAKE YEWS!

[Jennys]

Sue. Just rename your front path a "nature corridor" and your front garden could become a national park, perhaps.

[Sue]

Jennys Wrote:

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> Sue. Just rename your front path a "nature

> corridor" and your front garden could become a

> national park, perhaps.

Hey, great idea.

My front path is definitely a nature corridor, it has weeds aka wild flowers at the side of it.

And my front garden is deffo a park! It has plants in. And parks have plants in! :)

And it's definitely national, because it's in a nation.

[kiera]

This is a good example of "the boy who cried wolf".

The railway cutting which runs between Camberwell New Cemetery and Honor Oak Park station is on the Forest Hill to New Cross Gate cutting, which is described on Lewisham Council's website, in their page on Devonshire Road nature reserve, which is nearby on the same railside corridor,as "a site of metropolitan importance for nature conservation as it contains probably the finest suite of railside habitat in London

https://www.lewisham.gov.uk/inmyarea/openspaces/nature-reserves/Pages/devonshire-road-nature-reserve.aspx

The edge of the cemetery is also part of this site of metropolitan importance for nature conservation. Although the council are not planning on burying people in that bit, their plans will have an effect on it.

[HopOne]

The Honor Oak Nature Corridor may have been named recently but it is a real green chain of local importance and nothing new. See attached which is an excerpt from a sign on One Tree Hill, courtesy of Southwark Council. Not fake news, rather old news.

[nxjen]

I don't think anyone is disputing it is a significant nature conservation area. It does however put peoples' backs up, well it does mine, that certain people take ownership of an area through renaming and rebranding it.

[HopOne]

To my knowledge, this green corridor has not been named before so am fine with that. This is probably due to the fact that it straddles the border between councils. Lewisham's "Forest Hill to New Cross Gate railway cutting" comes close but doesn't include Camberwell New Cemetery, Honor Oak Park or One Tree Hill for example.

[Blanche Cameron]

We issued a statement today on the history of Council's burial strategy [incomplete]

"Residents fight Southwark digging up the dead"

"Inner city cemeteries are full and the plan was to allow cemetery owners to dig up the dead and reuse their graves. Just one little problem, or two, or three... Residents don?t want their loved ones dug up. And residents don?t want acres of cemetery woods and trees cut down to get at people?s graves. Families and history lovers don?t want headstones and memorials destroyed."

You can read here it in full: http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/grave-reuse-unacceptable/4593658115

Update:

We are Still waiting for the Diocese of Southwark to give permission to Southwark to continue work on the Underhill Road side of Camberwell Old Cemetery and to start on One Tree Hill in Camberwell New Cemetery. They seemed to have started without the proper permission. At least 26 trees (and possibly/probably more) will be cut down on the side of One Tree Hill for only 145 burial plots and possibly/probably less.

Second, the Council said they will apply for planning permission in mid-February for 1000 burial plots on the Old Nursery Site next to Honor Oak Rec on the Honor Oak Nature Corridor. We are waiting for this application.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries

Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966

[email protected]

http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

Twitter: @southwarkwoods

Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

[Penguin68]

It is true that the work was started on the cemeteries before full permissions (which do not cover all the cemetery or many actions on the consecrated areas in the cemetery for which permissions apply) had been granted by the Diocese, it is less clear that this work included (intentionally) any work which would have been covered by any such permissions. Tree work is not, in or of itself, an issue for the church in municipal cemeteries. The post above records scrub and unplanned trees removed - it does not reflect (because it is not yet complete) planned replanting of trees. Actually, it's a cemetery - its primary purpose is burial, not forestry. The number of recent burials in Camberwell Old Cemetery (and the graves dug over last week waiting to be filled) suggests a very real demand is being met.

[dbboy]

Another succinct response that nails it by Penguin68

[fruityloops]

Another succinct response that fails to address key issues in the argument

[JoeLeg]

Are you reading the same post as the rest of us fruityloops, or putting your own spin on it? It addresses exactly the actual issues going on. Maybe not the issues that SSW think should be dealt with, but then they seem to think the cemetery has a different function to the one it actually does.

[Blanche Cameron]

There are many issues involved. Here are just a few:

Southwark has not consulted with the families of those buried in the cemeteries as to whether they agree to having their loved ones being dug up or have their loved ones' graves mounded over.

There has been no Burial Needs Assessment by Southwark to find out what the real burial needs are. Right now, perhaps half of all the burial demand in the borough cannot be met in Southwark's cemeteries. Orthodox or strict Muslims and Jews need dedicated, consecrated cemeteries. And many people do not want to be buried on top of the graves of the dead. We don't know how many are not being served because Southwark hasn't done the research. These families cannot be buried in Southwark cemeteries yet are asked to pay for them.

Southwark has not done research into out of borough burial which would provide options for all residents' burial needs - as required in Cabinet 2012 conditions.

Southwark has not shown that cemetery works won't flood houses below the cemetery - as required by planning. There has been no Flood Risk Assessment for houses with two acres woods removed.

There has been no financial accountability from Southwark in this time of cuts. They have not responded to multiple requests for burial service expenditure to date and forecasts for future expenture. They have given a blank cheque for this non-statutory service. Southwark's Burial Strategy needs a change in the law to dig up the graves and continue burying. They are spending millions as if they already have the change in law.

The cemeteries are cemeteries and should remain cemeteries. The graves should be left alone.

These are just a few issues which make Southwark's plans unacceptable.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are against digging up or mounding over graves - so called 'reuse' and 'reclamation'.

We are against the destruction of memorials and monuments of the dead.

We are against cutting down trees and undergrowth to provide burial space.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[oddlycurious]

"Right now, perhaps half of all the burial demand in the borough cannot be met in Southwark's cemeteries. Orthodox or strict Muslims and Jews need dedicated, consecrated cemeteries. And many people do not want to be buried on top of the graves of the dead. We don't know how many are not being served because Southwark hasn't done the research"

If you don't have the numbers how can you say half the demand is not being met?

[Sue]

These issues have all been discussed on this forum ad nauseam last year.

Why are we all still here going over and over and over the same ground (pun not intended)?

[Penguin68]

Constant repetition of the same 'facts' and half facts is a good political method of wearing down opposition - in the end we give up not because we don't care, but because we have other things in our lives. Monomania will often win out in the end.

[Sue]

Agreed.

[nxjen]

Penguin68 Wrote:

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> Constant repetition of the same 'facts' and half

> facts is a good political method of wearing down

> opposition - in the end we give up not because we

> don't care, but because we have other things in

> our lives. Monomania will often win out in the

> end.

The constant repetition of 'facts' and 'half facts' is leading more to them being ignored because decision makers have given up trying to have any meaningful dialogue with them. I would have thought trying to save the bona fide ancient woodlands that face destruction with the building of HS2 would have been a better way of spending their time and effort.