Dangerous dog on Peckham Rye

[Jeremy]

emilydrab Wrote:

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> you should need a

> special license to keep certain breeds. Basically

> an unbalanced pug is going to be a lot less of a

> pain in the bum than an unbalanced American bull

> dog.

Agreed!

[Mscrawthew]

Compulsory neutering should also be enforced as well as all the free-ads (pre-loved, Gumtree etc) being banned from advertising and puppy farms should be shut down immediately. Back street breeders pockets are lined from people who pay them for animals and just encourage more unwanted animals. Hundreds are pts everyday (all breeds) because of all of the above. It`s going to take a lot more than a muzzle and lead to ensure that irresponsible people turn innocent dogs into walking weapons. Another problem is because of the media, Bull breeds are used by the irresponsible when in fact it takes a lot to make them aggressive and it all entails mistreatment and cruelty. Again it`s the deed not the breed and if the media didn`t continue to feed misinformation regarding these breeds then Joe Public wouldn`t be as misinformed as they are. And they would never have become a "Status" Breed.

[puzzled]

do you mean compulsory neutering of all dogs or just the ones in question here? too much neutering would lead to extinction.

[first mate]

MsCrawthew,

I understand where you are coming from but perhaps compulsory neutering is not the way to go unless such a measure could be amended to include a carefully monitored license for those who want to keep their dogs entire and to breed. I suspect such a system would be costly to introduce and to monitor and therefore not very attractive to politicians- but it is an idea.

You are right that certain bull breeds like Staffs would have to be maltreated to make them people aggressive, but much of what we see now is not pure bred and crosses to guard breeds have been introduced in order to make such dogs more people wary. The American Bulldog has both a strong prey drive and is wary of strangers naturally- making it a good guard breed but rather unsuitable for urban life without very careful training, supervision and control.

The problem with Staffs is that while they may be highly people friendly they have a naturally strong prey drive and are not reliable with small animals and other dogs, unless, again, they have been carefully trained, socialised and are monitored around other dogs from puppyhood. For instance Staffs need to be taught how to play with other dogs. They play in a very rough way naturally and other dogs are often intimidated by such play and a fight starts; it goes without saying that many a Staff will not back down once a fight has started. No amount of neutering is going to solve these issues although any reduction in testosterone may reduce the drive to certain behaviours.

[Mscrawthew]

The main thing to start with (which will never happen) would to be able to stop all back street breeders, This of course is inpractical but if these sources didn`t have demand it wouldn`t be worth their time to supply. All rescues neuter and spey before adoption or stipulate the animal has to be done at the right age as part of the adoption agreement. If the only way you could actually have a dog would be through a rescue or registered breeder (even though there are still problems associated with breeders handing in unsold or non-perfect litters to rescue) Funding should be given to rescue`s to enable them to ensure that all unwanted dogs are neutered and that the have the funding to keep any animal until it is re-homed. All dogs are assesed before rehoming and are matched to a suitable home. This of course does not happen with back street breeders. Again, if people continue to be allowed to sell animals through the free-ads then the wrong people will always be able to own a dog.

[Brendan]

I doubt it. There are so many unwanted dogs out there. For every cute, happy pup there are many sad tragedies of abandoned unwanted ones. We just block out the thought of dogs homes and pounds because it?s too sad.

Compulsory neutering can only be a good thing.

[first mate]

Yes, all fair points but you've still got to find a way of having licensed breeding working alongside neutering for dogs that are not kept for breeding and how do you keep these categories separate and policed? In saying that I am assuming that you do not wnat to see the end of all dogs?

[Brendan]

No of course not. I love dogs. I just an end to the thousands upon thousands of unwanted animals who pay the price with their lives so that we can have a pooch to throw a ball for in the park.

[first mate]

Brendan,

the devil is in the detail.

[Mscrawthew]

first mate Wrote:

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> Yes, all fair points but you've still got to find

> a way of having licensed breeding working

> alongside neutering for dogs that are not kept for

> breeding and how do you keep these categories

> separate and policed? In saying that I am assuming

> that you do not wnat to see the end of all dogs?

It could be done if the law was changed and actually enforced and the money was there but unfortunately we know it will never happen. I work with various rescue`s ( all volunteers) and people who dedicate almost all of their time to trying to save dogs from being pts after their 7 days are up at the pound. Yes, thats 7 days. If they are not claimed or a rescue has no space or funding for emergency boarding isn`t available then they are pts. these animals are also treated for worms flea`s etc and also in a lot of cases other medical problems through mistreatment or pure ignorance. Boarding costs an average of ?6.50 per dog per day. There are thousands of dogs and cats pts evey year in this country because of over breeding. Like Brendan said it is easy to not think about it but if people don`t help or campaign for something to be done the situation will just get worse.

I just want the government to wake up and realise that unless something is done the problem of stupid people breeding dogs only makes the already dire situation even more of a problem with dogs in the wrong hands. I love dogs and would love to see the suffering stop not wipe them out completely.

[first mate]

I think we all agree something needs to be done, but it's finding measures that will whet the appetites of our politicians, enough for them to want to drive them through into law. I'd love to hear thoughts from our current and would be councillors......?!

[cassidy]

Its a shame that everyone now seems to have a poor opinion of staffies and this post seems to be singling them out more even though it wasn't a staff that attacked poor woody.

I can understand everyones concern about bull breeds but there not all bad i have two staffies both boys and i have now problem with either of them they play in the park and socialize well with other dogs in fact one of mine was attacked earlier in the year my another dog that was not a bull breed and yet he still remains friendly most dogs regardless of breed have the capability of becoming aggressive and all owners have the responsibility of ensuring any dog they have is trained and socialized properly and if not they should be appropriately punished if the dog becomes dangerous or out of control.

However the fact that this post seems to be only referring to staffies is unfair and will cause problems as i myself have experience today when a complete stranger verbally abused me when i was walking my dogs with my two year old niece i was told my dogs were dangerous and should be muzzled despite being fully under control and leaded.

When looking at the issue of dog problems it is not just staffs but rottiweiler's, german sheppard's, akita's even jack russells have all been the subject of dog attacks so lets keep this discussion fair and look at the deed and not just brand a particular breed. You wouldn't label all drivers dangerous just because of one idiot so lets be just as fair to the dogs.

[first mate]

Cassidy,

It is unfortunate, but the fact is that the type of owner that is up to no good and makes a bad dog owner is, currently, inavariably attracted to a bull breed of some type, often a Staff or Staff mix. The fact is that most rescues are overflowing with dogs of these type, a fair few with behavioural problems. We cannot argue with the facts.

In the right hands most dogs can make good pets but you have to know what is what with each breed. I agree, you get some very laid back Staffs, the sort that are great with people and dogs, but a glance at any decent breed description of a Staff will mention that they can be unreliable with other dogs- a genetic byproduct of their fighting dog ancestry.

I agree you can get horrendous Jack Russells but, with regard to other dogs, they are never going to inflict injuries on the scale a Staff can. Children of course are a different matter. In my view, breeds like Rotties, Dobes, Shepherds, Akitas and Shar Pei are just as worrying, if not more so, in the wrong hands because they have a strong guard instinct. It is sad for the bull breeds that so many idiots are attracted to owning them.

[Mscrawthew]

Totally agree with you Cassidy, I am a Stafford owner who is also very well socialised and as daft as a brush. I have people look at me with disgust, Grab their children when they see me and even when she sits to let people pass on a narrow pavement and I smile at the people passing they don`t even acknowledge me. As Stafford owners we know what the breed is all about and it isn`t what is put out in the media. Fine example, walking her recently a man was approaching with a Jack Russell, My dog was wagging her tail wanting to say hello and his dog was snarling and barking and trying to get at her. She done nothing but look confused at why the dog was acting up. Amazing how things like that are never mentioned but it isn`t Jack Russells that are crucified by the media.

Dogs such as Akita`s, German Shepherds and Dobies are more likely to attack a person because of their strong instinct to protect their owner a stafford would lick you to death.

Maybe if the Government realised how much tax they were losing from money being made by back street breeding they might just get of their backsides and do something?

[Luke20]

i agree with cassidy i have a staff who is totally friendly great with children in fact if you read about them they used to be called the nanny dog, the only dog i had trouble with was a yorkshire terrier

[Mscrawthew]

You type a lot faster than me firstmate :)) Yes, hundreds of Staffies in rescue because of people breeding them and then realising it is a buyers market as there are hundreds to choose from because of over breeding. There is a group on facebook called "Staffies aren`t dangerous" with 30,000 members they can`t all be wrong regarding how loving, loyal and intelligent this breed is. Also lots of small independent rescues on facebook who will climb a mountain with no rope to save a lot of dogs including Staffies. New-hope animal rescue being one of them.

[first mate]

MsC,

I agree- where people are concerned you won't get a more naturally people-friendly breed than a purebred Staff- ditto Pit bull- well perhaps a Cavalier just pips them to the post!! Anyhow, my point is that it is with other dogs that one has to be careful. They are terriers and whilst not as quick tempered as some working strains of JR's or Patterdales, for example, they will not back down if really pushed that 'hold on till I die' trait is ingrained in them (don't Staffs just love a game of tuggy).

I also do believe that Staffs, a bit like Labs and Goldens, have a body language that is often hard for other dogs to read, they can be very 'in your face' and other dogs can take offence and then problems start. Quite aside from all that we cannot deny that the dog fighting heritage still comes through in some Staff lines and they are the kind of dog that cannot be trusted with other dogs, no matter how gorgeous they are with people. You hope that sensible people, breeding for family pets would not breed from dog aggressive strains, but people can be very silly- as we know and there's also no denying that some take a secret pride in the fact that their dog is 'king'.

Of course, the key is knowing how to train and socialise your particular breed. With Staffs, because they have a natural affinity for people, a lot is about teaching them how to get along with other breeds of dog.

[Mscrawthew]

And they can get along with other breeds without any problems and there are a lot of staffie owners who did research the breed and bring them up in the correct manner but it all comes back to ban the owner not the breed. This article says a lot

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7239464.stm

[puzzled]

the fact is that staffs are very people friendly... but they hate other dogs. argue all you like, but that is the truth

[Mscrawthew]

This is where the problem lays, People believe the hype.

[first mate]

Puzzled,

I do not agree with you there. Some lines of Staff are dog aggressive, others not. Those who breed responsibly and have in depth knowledge of breeding lines will tend to know that the last thing most people want is a dog that attacks other dogs. I know of a number of Staffs that are reliable with other dogs. They have been bought from reputable breeders who know what they are doing, they have been properly trained and socialised with other dogs from puppyhood and they are well supervised- they are no problem.

I believe a major factor in all this is the backyard breeders who are deliberately breeding from dog aggressive strains (or unwittingly; people often don't understand that dog on dog aggression is totally different from aggression to people and so if the dog is people friendly it must be okay with dogs. Not so). These breeders are also mixing the Staff with goodness knows what, so you have a dog that looks like a Staff but may have a very different temperament.

My sister in law has a KC registered Staff, very well bred by people who have been in the breed for years and really know what they are doing. She is fine with other dogs and she has been taught how to behave around them too. None of this "oh he's fine" shouted across the park while on a mobile!!

[Mscrawthew]

That you firstmate, I know Stafford and English Bull terier owners who foster dogs until they are re-homed all of which teach foster dogs how to fit into a pack without using aggresion or dominance. It`s the same old story, Hundreds of dogs get along fine everyday and nothing is mentioned and the one`s that don`t are highlighted, Everything gets blown out of proportion and the scaremongering starts.

[Huggers]

what a very sad tale all round.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Aren't Staffies number 2 on the list of "dog-on-human" attacks per year in the UK? Owners of the breed can't really be suprised that people are a little bit "wary" of them.

[LegalEagle-ish]

Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy Wrote:

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> Aren't Staffies number 2 on the list of

> "dog-on-human" attacks per year in the UK? Owners

> of the breed can't really be suprised that people

> are a little bit "wary" of them.

Where is the evidence for this statement?