Proposed 10km new double yellow lines across Dulwich

[Siduhe]

James, is it right that the decision has been made? I may be misreading something but when I look at the recorded decision it says:

2. That consideration of the objections relating to Village Way (Objection 2) and road junctions in the Dulwich Community Council Area (Objection 5) as summarised in Figure 1 and detailed in Appendix 1 of the report be deferred pending further analysis of the objections and impacts by officers.

[bold is my emphasis]

This doesn't read like they've made a final decision yet. Could you explain what I'm missing? Thanks.

[Katy Tonbridge]

If it's true that they've decided to go ahead with all the yellow lines then this is a very disappointing decision. One of my concerns is that clearing lots of junctions might actually have the opposite effect from the one intended - i.e. it will be easier for cars to go fast around corners. Keep fighting it, James!

[Penguin68]

I wish there were rules/ signage which would put a height restriction on close-to-the-junction parking. I have no problems with cars, even 4x4s, it's the double height white vans (or worse) parked on corners which I find so dangerous.

[first mate]

Katy,

Good spot. One take woukd be deferred until after the election.

[Sally Eva]

Katy Tonbridge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If it's true that they've decided to go ahead with

> all the yellow lines then this is a very

> disappointing decision. One of my concerns is

> that clearing lots of junctions might actually

> have the opposite effect from the one intended -

> i.e. it will be easier for cars to go fast around

> corners. Keep fighting it, James!

The Highway Code says drivers should not park within 10m of a junction because of the dangers to other road users.

[alex_b]

But it's a SHOULD not a MUST. It's obviously situational and my experience in Adys/Nutbrook (half of which got painted even though it wasn't in the consultation) is that it hasn't improved safety at the junction but has put a huge pressure on local parking.

[Sally Eva]

I'm afraid that when the law says should it means that this is what needs to be done. What "should" be done, in fact. When it means you can use your discretion it says "may"

The element of enforcement is missing of course because the Highway Code only comes into play in a court when judging negligence ie in this case when parking causes or contributes to an accident. Then a breach of the HC contributes to the calculation of liability.

The council is not proposing to enforce 10m, although arguably it should, but 7.5m.

[edhistory]

Paragraph 243 of the Highway Code (not parking within 10m from a junction) appears to be guidance only and not legislation.

Can someone clarify?

[rendelharris]

It's an odd one as the Highway Code has MUST NOT for legislation and SHOULD NOT for suggested best behaviour, this comes in a list under DO NOT. As I understand it parking withing ten metres of a junction is not an offence per se (if there are no yellow lines) but one can still be ticketed for causing an obstruction.

As Sally Eva notes above, all Southwark are doing is formalising that which it says in the Highway Code one ought not to do. Personally I'd say 7.5m or even 5m would be sufficient, though I do agree that selfish parking too close to junctions is a serious problem, but the idea, which some seem to have, that Southwark have just come up with this off the top of their heads is ridiculous, it's formalising what's in the Highway Code. As for revenue raising, if you don't park on the yellow lines, you won't have to give Southwark any revenue.

[Nigello]

I like the idea that people should be safe but I also like the idea that councils should not indulge in overkill (to pardon any pun). You could argue that 12m could be better than 10m as, well, it's more, isn't it? So why not just do the minimum. It is like that foolish requirement to check the ID of anyone under 25 when the law allows you to buy cigarettes or booze many years earlier.

I think there is either a spoken or unspoken rule to make car driving so frustrating for drivers that they just give up - and I speak as a pedestrian/transport user with asthma.

If 7.5m is OK, then let's go with that and let someone park where it is safe - the remanding 2.5m.

[Abe_froeman]

I don't think Southwark make much effort to hide the fact they are anti private car ownership and would like to make a lot more money out of people who insist on having their own car.

[Cardelia]

Sally Eva Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm afraid that when the law says should it means

> that this is what needs to be done. What "should"

> be done, in fact. When it means you can use your

> discretion it says "may"

>

The Highway Code is not law. It's a book of best practice. Occasionally, where it refers to actual law, it uses the words MUST and MUST NOT, and it provides a reference to the actual law(s) in question. Anything else in the HC is guidance. In this case, rule 240 uses MUST NOT and it lists the areas where parking is specifically prohibited by law. Rule 243, which contains the bit about not parking within 10 metres of a junction, uses DO NOT, hence it is guidance and not law. It is not a specific offence to park within 10 metres of a junction.

[James Barber]

Hi Sally Eva,

Yes the Highway code does state don't park within 10m of a junction. But the highway codes is for any road up to and including 60mph roads. These measures are being introduced AFTER our speed limits, depending on the road, have been reduced from 30 or 40mph to 20mph in recent years and when we've no reported crashes at these junctions for at least 5 years (I've not checked further back).

[Abe_froeman]

James as you yourself have argued in the case of Melbourne Grove, speeding is still a massive issue with people driving at very dangerous speeds notwithstanding the 20mph limit. You have even approved funding to buildout a junction which will come with new double yellow lines because the junction is designed to maximize speeding

[Siduhe]

James, could you clarify whether an actual decision has been made about implementing the yellow lines in our area - from reading the report it looks like the decision has been deferred but would be grateful for your clarification (see my post at the top of this page).

[James Barber]

Hi Siduhe,

A decision has been taken. But that decision has a window whereto council main Over & Scrutiny Committee can call it in to be reviewed. That committee can then leet it proceed or ask for the decision to be reconsidered.

I am talking to the clerk of that committee about calling the decision in.

[MoysieC]

10m is excessive - a much smaller length would also achieve Southwark's alleged health and safety aims. It is clearly a deliberate attempt to put parking under excessive pressure and then bring in a controlled parking zone. Why don't the Council listen to the objections raised by local people?

[Abe_froeman]

I think its gone beyond pay to park. They want to discourage people from owning their own car altogether.

[Sally Eva]

MoysieC Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> 10m is excessive - a much smaller length would

> also achieve Southwark's alleged health and safety

> aims. It is clearly a deliberate attempt to put

> parking under excessive pressure and then bring in

> a controlled parking zone. Why don't the Council

> listen to the objections raised by local people?

10 m is the distance which the Highway Code says drivers should leave free around around a junction ie they should not park closer to a junction than 10m. The council has proposed 7.5m.

[edhistory]

"should"?

[Sally Eva]

This is a driving school view of the Highway Code:

https://www.learnerdriving.com/learn-to-drive/highway-code/the-law

The Law

Many of the rules in the Code are legal requirements, and if you disobey these rules you are committing a criminal offence. You may be fined, given penalty points on your licence or be disqualified from driving. In the most serious cases you may be sent to prison. Such rules are identified by the use of the words MUST / MUST NOT. In addition the rule includes an abbreviated reference to the legislation which creates the offence.

Although failure to comply with the other rules of the Code will not, in itself, cause a person to be prosecuted, The Highway Code may be used in evidence in any court proceedings under Traffic Acts to establish liability.

Knowing and applying the rules contained in The Highway Code could significantly reduce road accident casualties. Cutting the number of deaths and injuries that occur on our roads every day is a responsibility we all share. The Highway Code can help us discharge that responsibility.

[daveybigpotatoes]

'Cutting the number of deaths and injuries' as a goal is obviously great. But putting 7.5m of double lines arbitrarily on each side (so 15 metres per corner) is surely overkill.

Yes you can always do more and certain types will always say 'you can't be too careful/prudent' - but excessive yellows cause problems for everyone who wants to park somewhere without a proportionate benefit.

[Sally Eva]

Which is an opinion, but not what the Highway Code says.

[MarkT]

Yesterday a car on Goodrich passed a stop sign and collided with another coming down Friern Road. Friern Road has build outs on all four corners, but Goodrich is usually parked up close to the junction. At the time of the accident, Goodrich was clear of parked vehicles, for some distance from the crossing, giving far better site-lines than would be guaranteed by the proposed yellow lines.

This is of course anecdotal. Who knows if the unusually good sight lines contributed to that accident, but Southwark's own Streetscape Design Manual warns that increasing sight-lines can increase speed.

No one was injured and I don't know if such accidents are recorded. For those that are, I wonder if the immediate state of parking is recorded.

MarkT

[mikeb]

@Sally Eva - quoting the Highway Code's highly generic guidance, necessarily intended to be understood in the context of average traffic conditions nationally, brings us no closer to understanding what to do in East Dulwich with high density housing and 20mph limits (which you can barely reach in the streets in question anyway).