Nelson Mandela - the terrorist turned peacemaker

[Mick Mac]

What do we know of Nelson Mandela. I'm watching Question Time from Northern Ireland and we have a position where former terrorists in SinnFein are part of a power sharing executive debating police powers ets. Some think this is wrong. Reference has been made to the reformed terrorist Nelson Mandela - but what exactly did he do and what did the ANC do when he was in control of that group? Should we respect him as we do and if so should we respect the other former terrorists who have turned to reform.

Why does Nelson Mandela enjoy such high standing? Obviously I will then make comparisons to Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness so hedge your answers appropriately.

From Yahoo: He wasn't just a member of the ANC, he was the leader. As leader he gave his support to terrorist activities such as blowing up restaurants with families inside, executing black people who did not support the ANC and stopping black children from going to school because schools were seen as "White". So yes, he did commit a crime by heading a criminal organisation

[Roll Deep]

"Why does Nelson Mandela enjoy such high standing?"

Simply for those shirts. Where as Martin McGuinness just looks like a clown with no make-up.

[Mick Mac]

He looks like a man sitting in the drawing room not the lounge.

[Roll Deep]

In 'The Chair'.

[woofmarkthedog]

He..

Also joins the pantheon, along with Frank Spencer, John Wayne & Loadsa money of.......

"Dead easy to impersonate even when drunk"

" I ama veercy happy tooday, chanka yoou "

Thanks Nelson

I bet also that Tony blair or even Gordon Brown used to mimic his voice in private

Imagine the Queen doing a "Nelson"

"Pleaasea Phillipp , I would lika drinkk "

Now that would be funny

W**F

[????]

Mick I'm not sure if we can do this one...we've tried before but...I guess one thing you could say was Martin McGuinness had a vote in the country he lived in way back in 69 (if he was 18 then?) whatever he thought of it's sovereignty and discrimination towards his community and where the 'community' he came from was a minority (again putting questions about sovreignty aside) whereas Nelson Mandela had no vote and no rights in a country where his race were the massive majority.

[SimonM]

That Yahoo summary is total bollocks. Whatever acts it carried out, the A.N.C. was only a "crimial organisation" because it was outlawed by a government neither it, nor the majority of the citizens of South Africa nor indeed much of the outside world regarded as legitimate or representative. IIRC he was imprisoned only for blowing up electricity pylons. Mandela is by no definition a "reformed terrorist".

"former terrorists in Sinn Fein"??? Hmm...wasn't SF the ballot box half of the "armalite and ballot box" strategy? Was McGuinness even in SF?

It's long been a cliche that one's mans's terroist is another's freedom fighter and, eventually, distinguished statesman of course - but Mandela's long prison term and stoic reaction has marked him out as special.

[Mick Mac]

Ah - someone is awake - good.

So terrorism is justified for Mandela? That seems to be the implication. Do you respect him despite what he and his ANC did?

Martin McGuinness had a vote in the country he

> lived in way back in 69 (if he was 18 then?)

> whatever he thought of it's sovereignty and

> discrimination towards his community and where the

> 'community' he came from was a minority

I'm sure you are correct about Martin McGuinness - but can I rephrase it - Martin McGuinness had a meaningless vote and no rights.

I don't really want to talk about McGuinness until later - but i'm interested in why we respect Mandela as much as we do.

[Mick Mac]

For Simon

The organization became the ANC in 1923 and formed a military wing, the Umkhonto we Sizwe (Spear of the Nation) in 1961.

ANC military wing

Don't get me wrong - I'm learning here - I want to know why Mandela is revered by some and was referred to as a former terrorist.

[????]

I'm off to bed. Tomorrow maybe.

[????]

...maybe we could make it this week's Friday Night Dad's club theme

[Mick Mac]

According to Nelson Mandela, all of the founding members of the MK, including himself, were also members of the ANC. In his famous "I am prepared to die" speech, Mandela outlined the motivations which led to the formation of the MK:[3]

Firstly, we believed that as a result of Government policy, violence by the African people had become inevitable, and that unless responsible leadership was given to canalize and control the feelings of our people, there would be outbreaks of terrorism which would produce an intensity of bitterness and hostility between the various races of this country which is not produced even by war. Secondly, we felt that without violence there would be no way open to the African people to succeed in their struggle against the principle of white supremacy. All lawful modes of expressing opposition to this principle had been closed by legislation, and we were placed in a position in which we had either to accept a permanent state of inferiority, or to defy the Government. We chose to defy the law. We first broke the law in a way which avoided any recourse to violence; when this form was legislated against, and then the Government resorted to a show of force to crush opposition to its policies, only then did we decide to answer violence with violence

It seems Simon - that you comment that the ANC / Nelson Mandela were only criminal because the SA govt categorised them as criminal - is incorrect - their military wing meant business, in violent term.

[Mick Mac]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ...maybe we could make it this week's Friday Night

> Dad's club theme

Oooh no - I'm far too excited to wait until Friday frivolities to discuss this.

Anyway - does not Mrs Q expect to be taken out Friday night? I don't want to set a precednt but I have a table booked for 3 for tomoz (baby incl.).

[SimonM]

>>It seems Simon - that you comment that the ANC / Nelson Mandela were only criminal because the SA govt categorised them as criminal - is incorrect - their military wing meant business, in violent term.<<

He was a criminal only in a narrow technical and not terribly useful sense. He was certainly no terrorist. There's more to resorting to "terror" than merely employing or threatening violence as a form of self-defence.

[????]

Mick Mac Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ???? Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > ...maybe we could make it this week's Friday

> Night

> > Dad's club theme

>

> Oooh no - I'm far too excited to wait until Friday

> frivolities to discuss this.

>

> Anyway - does not Mrs Q expect to be taken out

> Friday night? I don't want to set a precednt but I

> have a table booked for 3 for tomoz (baby incl.).

Mick - can you please remove this post ASAP...I may have to have a word with admin

[Brendan]

Simon, You actually don?t know what the fuck you?re talking about.

Perhaps you could go and explain to the parents of the 6 year old girl in my class who was blown to pieces in a Saturday morning bomb in the Wimpy back in ?84 that they shouldn?t be so upset as she was really just an electricity pylon.

Now I actually have a great deal of respect for Mandela for a number of reasons and when I have the energy I will address Mick?s question as best I can. But unless you actually know what you are talking about or have a proper perspective on South Africa its history and peoples* rather just keep quiet.

*which is something that experience has taught me folks possessing this island?s cosseted world view don?t/can?t posses.

[mothernature]

Nelson Mandela's wife was not very nice, when he was in prison.

[RosieH]

Brendan Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> *which is something that experience has taught me

> folks possessing this island?s cosseted world view

> don?t/can?t posses.

Oh hush now Brendan, don't undermine your very valid point with peevish sniping

[Brendan]

It?s quite a valid point Rosie. If not put in the most diplomatic way. Approaching South African politics from a British perspective is about as valid as me approaching Russian politics from a South African one.

[*Bob*]

(Unspecific to the Brendan/Simon thing, but..)

One wing of Mrs *Bob*'s family went to SA in the '70s - and are still there today, in greater number.

During apartheid, their line was 'you don't understand because you don't live here'.

Post-apartheid, their line is 'you don't understand because you don't live here'.

The truth was that much of the rest of the family, 'cossetted' or not (Australians, Americans, Brits) understood more than they thought. Possibly more than the SA lot were prepared to admit, either to anyone else - or themselves - back then or now.

[giggirl]

What does that mean exactly Brendan? It seems very high handed. So the British perspective in invalid, yes? Whose perspective is valid? Yours? Anyone else?

[Brendan]

To answer Mick?s earlier point regarding Mandela. (put very simply) South Africa was at war. Mandela was part of this war but so were a lot of other people. It had been at war (both on the borders and more covertly domestically) for a long time and it looked like it was going to be for the foreseeable future. At a point where things came to a head Mandela took the opportunity to make something positive of a country that could very easily have descended into full blown civil war.

What was achieved really was something special and Mandela was not only the figurehead but also very much the driving force. This is why he is respected universally by all the peoples of SA.

As for his deification by the western media well that?s just so much bullshit but he very cleverly uses it help promote good causes.

This article in the indy recently put the time and place into perspective quite well and with the except of 1 or 2 small points is a very accurate reflection of SA at the time.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/fw-de-klerk-and-the-end-of-apartheid-1886128.html

[Brendan]

WThey do have a certain point *bob*. It seems to be a hobby of a certain type of brit to have opinions on things, people and places they know fuck all about. Perhaps next you can regale us with your views on China, Pakistan or Australia.

What do you actually know about South Africa? Do you know how it came to be? Do you know who its original inhabitants were? Do you know anything of the original Dutch settlers? The Huguenots? The mfecane? The rise of the Zulu nation? The great treks? The British empires influence/wars and genocides? What do you know of figure such as Moshoeshoe, Dingane, Kruger? What do you know of the impoverishment of the Boers during the depression and the mass exploitation of black labour by English mining concerns? Do you even know how many nations live in South Africa? Have you ever had to flee a township where you were doing charity work and caught the stench of someone being necklaced on the wind? What do you know of the 3000 odd men women and children who have been killed in organised farm attacks over the last decade? The residual effects of separate development? Any idea what it's like growing up in Joburg? The tribal affiliations within local politics? etc etc etc

You know fuck all about South Africa, what it is like and what it means to be South African. Your self-righteous, scornful opinion lacks perspective.

Now most decent polite people I will happily engage in discourse with on the matter but little shits with your type of attitude can fuck right off.

[Brendan]

Not that is pisses me off or anything.

[HAL9000]

I was at the ANC's Patten Street headquarters to meet its president Oliver Tambo and Solly Smith, then head of the London office - later exposed as a double agent, shortly before BOSS bombed it in March 1982. When the bomb detonated, the building was empty except for a caretaker who was only slightly injured. It was a close call - the explosives were enhanced with vials of nerve gas and hidden in the room where our meeting had taken place.