Applying for primary schools: preference vs proximity

[akc74]

At the risk of sounding thick I would be grateful for clarification re the following scenarios, from anyone who has the whole primary school thing totally sussed.

I apply for school A and school B, as my first and second choices, respectively. I live nearer school B. Am I jeopardising my chance of getting into school B, by putting school A (marginally further away and pretty popular) first?

Another thing I wanted to clarify, on the tour at Bessemer (neither of the schools in mind in the scenario above) we were told: "If you want to come here you really need to put us first". If, though, schools do not see the order of preference that we put, this shouldn't be the case? i.e. If you put Bessemer second, and your first school didn't have a place for you, if you lived NEARER to Bessemer than someone else putting it first, would you get the place or would they? Or is it just not that simple?!

Thanks in advance for any clarification - I thought it was all pretty straightforward but a couple of comments from people have confused me!

[Kes]

Schools don't know what order you put them in. If you put school A first that will only stop you getting into B if you get a place at A. If you don't get a place at A it will make no difference to getting a place at B.

Bessemer should really know this, I guess it's possible they don't or that they want lots of people to make them first choice so they look more popular?

[lightweight]

Schools can't see which order you put them in but I suspect the reason given above is correct!

My daughter was asked at a secondary school interview what school she had chosen first.

[simonethebeaver]

The possible reason for Bessemer saying that is that too many people think you need to be tactical with your list, whereas in fact you really should put them in the order you like them! You will still get a place at your nearest school (assuming you're not in a trouble zone) if you put them 6th if no other schools you prefer can offer you a place. If you liked Bessemer more than your nearest school but put it second because you were worried about not getting anything and thought your nearest school would reject you if not first, leaving you with nothing (still with me?!), then you wouldn't get into Bessemer even though you preferred it.

That makes sense in my head but might not on paper.

[Grotty]

You put them in the order you like them as simonebeaver said.

You automatically go onto the waiting list of all 6 schools on your list.

Each school therefore ends up with one long list - first of all they split the list, all SEN kids get a place, then all siblings on that list get a place, and then whoever is left get ordered according to proximity and nothing else. It has absolutely nothing to do with what number you put them down on your list. The school has no idea whether you put them 1st or 6th. If they have 15 places left after divvying up places to SEN kids and siblings, then the closest 15 kids get an offer on offer day. After that if any of the above groups of kids turn the place down, an offer goes to the next closest and so on.

The only difference being that if you get an offer for the school, say 4th on your list, Southwark will inform your 5th and 6th choice schools to take you off their list, so you will no longer be on their waiting list. But your 1st, 2nd and 3rd choice school will have no idea that you have been offered a place at your 4th choice and will keep you on the list until that point that you either a) get offered a place b) tell them to take you off. So over time if enough kids turn down a place, or after term starts, drop out, then you keep bumping up the list and edging ever closer to being offered a place. Even if you accept a place at another school you remain on those waiting list unless you tell them to take you off, or you get offered a place.

Basically, this means if you are happy with your local school but have a few a bit further away that you like more, then put local school near the bottom and the ones you like at the top. You won't sacrifice the local school, you'll probably get a place there, but will remain on waiting lists at the ones you prefer until that day when you hopefully get a place. If you were to put local school as your 1st choice, and you get offered a place there, you will not be put on waiting lists at any other school (although this is only initially. Anecdotally, it seems that you can actually ring up a school after offer day and ask to be put on the waiting list for a school regardless, so not a particularly strict system).

Thats how I've perceived it all anyway. I may be wrong...

[simonethebeaver]

Not only will you not get on other waiting lists but you stand no chance of being offered a place. You get a place at the highest placed school on your list for which you qualify, so if you qualify for your number one school, none of the others can offer you a place, even if you prefer them.

So regardless of any other factors, put your schools in the order you like them!

[bawdy-nan]

Actually, doesn't work like that with SEN children who are not part of the general process. Their school is named on the their statement if that is the school best able to meet their needs. Looked after children and those with social or medical special circumstancs (verified by professional's letters) are at the top of the list, then siblings then proximity.

[Renata Hamvas]

To confirm the above, definitely put the schools in your order of preference. The schools do not know which order you have put them. Do use all your six choices and do investigate some of the less popular schools too. It's not worth eg putting a very oversubscribed school you like that's a mile away 6th choice. Do be realistic and realise that last place offered distances can vary greatly from year to year. Also check on the school's admissions criteria. LA primaries (after siblings SEN etc) offer places by distance as the crow flies; C of E primaries tend to offer 50% of their places like this with the other 50% being offered on faith; Catholic primaries tend to offer on Faith and then remaining places after siblings etc on distance. Local Academies and Free School primaries currently tend to use similar criteria to the LA schools except Judith Kerr which offers 50% on distance and 50% by random allocation (lottery).

Renata

[GinaG3]

To me its like a free for all after the process to get my daughter in a school this year. Most definitely go on YOUR preferences but think about proximity too. We had local schools, within 0.5 miles at the top of our list but we ordered them as such that our choice on preference were given too. We would of been really happy with number 1 but also would of been happy with number 6, but number 1 went top because we would of been happy and it was within the most reasonable distance. We were in this years trouble zone and didn't end up getting a place at any of our desired schools. We applied late for a school with a large catchment, but a brilliant school too. It wasn't originally on our list because we didn't realise how large the catchment was, and didn't want to travel that far to school every morning. We waited on lists with all of them for 3 months, and ended up getting a offer the day the kids broke up for summer holidays. We were offered our 7th choice! Although I would still rather be at a school we can walk to I wouldn't change where we are at all. My daughter loves it and so do I. The our atmosphere of the school is brilliant and our daughter is thriving there. To think I didn't put it on my list originally!

[akc74]

Thanks for all your comments and feedback so far.

So based on the general consensus, I think I am going to get specific, as offline some people have suggested I would jeopardise my second choice, given the emphasis on fulfilling as many first choices as possible. The schools may not know, but the council do and they want to get a high % into their first choice.

So - if I put Goose Green first (about 600m) and St. John's & St. Clement's 2nd (about 300m), if Goose Green cannot offer a place, I am still in with a chance of St. John's? Potentially over someone who puts it first but lives slightly further?

As my husband keeps reminding me, could very easily not get either - esp given St. John's church places.

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi Akc74. The people who suggested that putting a school second jeopardises your chance to get a place at that school are definitely wrong; unless you get offered a place at your first choice school! (you are no longer considered for schools lower on your list).

The allocation process is done by computer. The Council Officers only see the final lists so have no influence on what happens (except if you are one of a small proportion who allocated a school not on your list). You would be higher up on priority than someone (also non-faith) living further from the school. This is why some applicants may be allocated a school they put fourth on the form, whilst other people who put the same school first, don't get it.

Renata

[Otta]

It seems to be like a total kottery in the Dulwich area whatever you put.

[Cherabel]

Hi Akc74

We are also putting Goose Green first and St Johns second, so we're probably in a similar part of East Dulwich.

I also share your husband's concern about not getting into either. Both Dog Kennel Hill and Goose Green took bulge classes last year and aren't doing so this time. I know Bessemer are moving permanently to 3 form entry but that still leaves a shortfall of 60 places at this end of East Dulwich. Unless some new bulge classes are announced soon I think catchments will be really tight this year.

Luckily Bessemer is also a great school so I'm hoping we'd still get in there if we don't get our first two choices.

Think I will also add Bellenden to my list as they also have a slightly wider catchment. Not sure what to put as my sixth choice.

Renata, could you shed any more light on bulge classees for East Dulwich? Bessemer can't be the only one surely??

[Fmm]

Sorry to bring this one up again, but... I am now living a little way from the area, but am interested what views are on the following: you are told that you should always put down 6 choices. What if:

- a school has been very unpopular in the past and thus has for the last 3 years had a 'catchment'/ furthest offer of over 3 miles. As it is our nearest school (0.5 miles from our house) and we were ok with it and its aspirations at the open day, we planned to put this as our choice no. 3. Is there any point in putting choices 4-6 down, given it is probably very unlikely that the 'catchment' will shrink so much that we would not get in?

- there are only 3 schools in the area that we would ever have been in the 'catchment' for. Therefore is there any point in putting choices 4-6 down when we have never been in the catchment for any of the other schools in the borough?

Advice would be apreciated.

[BeccaL]

Definitely fill all 6 slots, even with schools you haven't a hope of getting into, otherwise the council can allocate you any school on the basis that they couldn't meet any of your preferences. If you have stipulated 6 choices you're in a better position than if you left any empty. Sounds ridiculous but true...

[Fmm]

Thank you BeccaL - but if there is no way we will get into schools 4-6 as their catchments are tiny (1 road or less, we are say 10 streets away), are we not in the same position if we put them down, as if we leave them blank ie. if we don't get into choices 1-3, we will be allocated somewhere random and not on our list anyway, as we were out of catchment for all our choices?

(sorry if that doesn't make sense)

[Kes]

If you are sure you can get into that school then you have nothing to loose by putting it 6th on the list. You could then put a few others that you would prefer but don't think there is any chance of getting into higher up. There is always a tiny possibility that the more popular school may suddenly have a bulge class or something and you could get in and if not you still get a place at the less popular school.