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messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by JohnL February 18, 11:38AM

Switzerland is not in the EU but is in the Schengen area - It's in EFTA.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by keano77 February 18, 12:15PM

Iím always happy to be corrected stepdown but your answer doesnít quite cut the mustard.

Thereís a reason the EU spent 3 1/2 years blackmailing the U.K. in the divorce talks - it was the UKís Achilles heel and if the U.K. didnít play ball Ireland (NB not the U.K.) would need to introduce a border to protect the integrity of the Single Market and all problems that would flow from it.

It was well played by the EU, managing to place the onus onto the U.K.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by stepdown February 18, 12:27PM

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Switzerland is not in the EU but is in the
> Schengen area - It's in EFTA.

True, but their border still looks "harder" to me:
[www.bbc.co.uk]


keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Iím always happy to be corrected stepdown but your
> answer doesnít quite cut the mustard.

So, you stand by your assertions that "EU states have to erect a border against non EU states" and an "independent Scotland within the EU would need to erect such a border that would make Hadrianís wall look like a flimsy picket fence" despite the example of Norway? That was the point I was responding to.


keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thereís a reason the EU spent 3 1/2 years
> blackmailing the U.K. in the divorce talks - it
> was the UKís Achilles heel and if the U.K. didnít
> play ball Ireland (NB not the U.K.) would need to
> introduce a border to protect the integrity of the
> Single Market and all problems that would flow
> from it.
>
> It was well played by the EU, managing to place
> the onus onto the U.K.

The Good Friday Agreement was not the EU's doing, and is where the border complications arose from. The UK's position was contradictory, there was no "blackmailing" as you so emotionally put it.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by stepdown February 18, 12:47PM

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the EU spent 3 1/2 years blackmailing the U.K.
> in the divorce talks

It was not until 29 March 2017 that the UK invoked Article 50. The withdrawal agreement was published on 14 November 2018. The negotiations lasted less than 1 3/4 years.

Even if we were to accept your unfair characterisation of the negotiations, more than half that time was the UK's representatives arguing amongst themselves.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by keano77 February 18, 01:07PM

I donít disagree with everything you say stepdown but Iíll do you the courtesy of providing the following rather than just a link on its own

ď... LEVEL PLAYING FIELD

Preserving a Ďlevel playing fieldí of customs and regulations after Brexit is crucial to the EU as whatever enters Ireland from Britain has free access to the rest of the blocís single market.

Brussels needs to ensure that such products would not undermine agreed common standards, or compete by price dumping.

Without an agreement with Britain, it would insist on checks on the border - which might be a threat to a Northern Ireland peace settlement that depends to some extent on unimpeded north-south movement.

Alternatively, the EU could run checks between Ireland and continental Europe, but that would damage Dublinís economic interests and subordinate them to non-member Britainís...Ē

[www.reuters.com]

...it would insist on checks on the border... ie the EU would insist.

I realise this is a secondary source but a very reputable one youíll agree.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by JohnL February 18, 01:08PM

stepdown Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JohnL Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Switzerland is not in the EU but is in the
> > Schengen area - It's in EFTA.
>
> True, but their border still looks "harder" to
> me:
> [www.bbc.co.uk]
>
>

Yes it seems to be so for road traffic.

It was just another day for Darren Grimes however smiling smiley

[www.theneweuropean.co.uk]

and the replies that prove the rule of "be kind unless it's grimes"

Jon Worth tweeted: ďTheyíre both in Schengen you dim witted imbecile. If you had been driving a truck itíd have been different.Ē



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was february 18, 01:10pm by JohnL.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by Sephiroth February 18, 01:22PM

"...it would insist on checks on the border... ie the EU would insist."

which was why remainers said all along and were called scaremongerers. You wanted to leave a perfectly stable union TO TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR BORDERS!!, where this was always going to happen and you did it anyway

Now you complain it's only the EU insisting as if you don't care about borders -- breathtaking

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by diable rouge February 18, 01:27PM

Blamers gotta blame...

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by stepdown February 18, 01:30PM

I appreciate your efforts to copy and paste, but you've deliberately edited out the relevant information. That would only be the case if there wasn't an agreement, and as I said, what the border looks like depends on the agreement reached.

Reuters Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Without an agreement with Britain, it would insist
> on checks on the border

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...it would insist on checks on the border... ie
> the EU would insist.


You're not actually responding to any of the points raised or defending any of your own. You're just spinning one section of an article from August last year explaining the border situation before Boris Johnson dropped the red line of "no border on the island of Ireland".

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by pk February 18, 01:36PM

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Without an agreement with Britain, it would insist
> on checks on the border - which might be a threat
> to a Northern Ireland peace settlement that
> depends to some extent on unimpeded north-south
> movement.
>
> Alternatively, the EU could run checks between
> Ireland and continental Europe, but that would
> damage Dublinís economic interests and subordinate
> them to non-member Britainís...Ē
>
>
> ...it would insist on checks on the border... ie
> the EU would insist.
>

so obviously in the absence of a free trade agreement there'd have to be checks on the border?

the EU would obviously insist on checks on goods coming into their region - but you think that we shouldn't have similar checks on stuff coming to the UK in the event of no deal? really?

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by JohnL February 18, 01:38PM

Cummings and the press fit well together - maybe they should just report what he does every day.

[news.sky.com]

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by keano77 February 18, 02:08PM

Posted by Sephiroth Today, 01:22PM

"...it would insist on checks on the border... ie the EU would insist."

...which was why remainers said all along and were called scaremongerers...

Posted by stepdown Today, 01:30PM

...That would only be the case if there wasn't an agreement...


Posted by pk Today, 01:36PM

...the EU would obviously insist on checks on goods coming into their region -

Thank you, youíve proved my point. The nasty EU would impose border checks jeopardising the Good Friday Agreement to make sure their euros keep coming into the Brusselsí coffers unless the U.K. accepts its rules and becomes a vassal state.

But this is all old territory. Exciting times lie ahead when the talks commence.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by stepdown February 18, 02:23PM

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you, youíve proved my point.

You haven't made a point, you're just spouting falsehoods and talking points. Your use of "vassal state" makes it painfully transparent that you're just regurgitating the words of others, pitiful really.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by keano77 February 18, 02:38PM

Itís all about money stepdown, something Remainers appear to be unable to grasp.

Thereís a reason ex World Bank and new ECB President Christine Lagarde is instigating a root and branch review of the bankís monetary policy.

The reason the EU imposes border checkpoints is to collect taxes/tariffs because itís a protectionist market.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by pk February 18, 03:19PM

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Thank you, youíve proved my point. The nasty EU
> would impose border checks

and your idea is that we let people bring whatever they want in without any border checks and without any free trade agreement? cause we're 'nice' (and stupid?)

that isn't how these things work - borders aren't a new thing

I guess that the point proved is that you don't know what you're talking about

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by stepdown February 18, 03:34PM

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Itís all about money stepdown, something Remainers
> appear to be unable to grasp.

You can't even stay on-message between posts, last time round money was only an issue "unless the U.K. accepts its rules". So what is it all about, regulations or revenue?


keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thereís a reason ex World Bank and new ECB
> President Christine Lagarde is instigating a root
> and branch review of the bankís monetary policy.

Yes, the reason is to decide how they calculate their inflation target which was last updated in 2003:
[www.ft.com]


keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The reason the EU imposes border checkpoints is to
> collect taxes/tariffs because itís a protectionist
> market.

No, "protectionist" means tariffs to protect local industry from foreign competition, the clue is in the name. The aim is to reduce domestic consumption of foreign imports, not to generate revenue.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by keano77 February 18, 03:53PM

How things work today pk might not be how they work tomorrow. Itís called change or adaption or evolution etc

The EU realises it will need to adapt or die but so far only Macron seems to be suggesting change by advocating greater integration.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by keano77 February 18, 04:08PM

ď... You can't even stay on-message between posts...Ē

Youíve fallen into the trap that our Brexit negotiators did stepdown by accepting the EU version of what the message is.

The majority of the British people freed you from such thinking in the referendum. Wipe the sleep out of your eyes stepdown and open your mind.

Dominic Cummings is looking for radical thinkers.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by keano77 February 18, 04:20PM

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thereís a reason ex World Bank and new ECB
> President Christine Lagarde is instigating a root
> and branch review of the bankís monetary policy.

Yes, the reason is to decide how they calculate their inflation target which was last updated in 2003:
[www.ft.com]

Err, hello - £10 Billion hole in annual contributions now the U.K. has thrown off the shakles

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by keano77 February 18, 04:21PM

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thereís a reason ex World Bank and new ECB
> President Christine Lagarde is instigating a root
> and branch review of the bankís monetary policy.

Yes, the reason is to decide how they calculate their inflation target which was last updated in 2003:
[www.ft.com]

Err, hello - £10 Billion hole in annual contributions now the U.K. has thrown off the shackles

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by keano77 February 18, 04:27PM

No, "protectionist" means tariffs to protect local industry from foreign competition, the clue is in the name. The aim is to reduce domestic consumption of foreign imports, not to generate revenue.

Translation - to keep prices artificially high

Why do you think CAP had wine lakes and beef mountains?

Anyway, I apologise as this is going over old ground.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was february 18, 04:29pm by keano77.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by pk February 18, 04:28PM

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How things work today pk might not be how they
> work tomorrow. Itís called change or adaption or
> evolution etc
>
But as weíre here today why not deal with today rather than speculate about some bizarre future where countries donít have free trade arrangements but donít have border controls either?

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by keano77 February 18, 04:45PM

Good point pk. But Iím more interested in the pressure Barnier is coming under from EU countries seeking to protect their own interests before the talks start. His draft negotiating position has had to be redrafted several times already.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by stepdown February 18, 04:48PM

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Err, hello - £10 Billion hole in annual
> contributions now the U.K. has thrown off the
> shakles

You've exposed your ignorance of what monetary policy is.


keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Translation - to keep prices artificially high
>
> Why do you think CAP had wine lakes and beef
> mountains?

Yes, as I explained that is the mechanism by which protectionism works, but you've exposed your ignorance of the difference between subsidies and tariffs as well as the MacSharry reforms that began in 1992: [en.wikipedia.org]

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by pk February 18, 04:56PM

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good point pk. But Iím more interested in the
> pressure Barnier is coming under from EU countries
> seeking to protect their own interests before the
> talks start. His draft negotiating position has
> had to be redrafted several times already.


I'm more interested in how and when Boris and his BS mates are going to own up to all the lies that they've told and the misinformation that they've spread (based on and taking advantage of ignorance) and the fact that they haven't got any credible plan

but in reality, I expect that they won't own up at all and that they'll blame all bad things on the EU being unreasonable

and mugs like you will fall for it

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by keano77 February 18, 05:09PM

ď... You've exposed your ignorance of what monetary policy is...Ē

Iím sure Iíve got a couple of books by Milton Friedman on my bookshelves somewhere but I confess they must be very dusty now. You might be too young to remember but Friedman was flavour of the month under Margaret Thatcher and her policies devastated industrial Britain and mining communities and could be said to have paved the way for the Brexit result.

Monetarism is about the supply of money. So weíre back to money, money, money as the ABBA hit had it.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by keano77 February 18, 05:23PM

ď... and mugs like you will fall for it...Ē

I have to admire your small c conservatism pk - your brave attempts to preserve the (EU) status quo. No adventurer you, boldly prepared to move forward.

Do you have an EU flag on your bedroom wall? And perhaps a picture of Barnier that you light candles before. Do tell.

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by JohnL February 18, 05:30PM

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do you have an EU flag on your bedroom wall? And
> perhaps a picture of Barnier that you light
> candles before. Do tell.

Guy Verhofstadt is the Remainer poster boy.

[twitter.com]

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by Sephiroth February 18, 05:31PM

Gotta love a country that agrees and signs a working agreement only to renege on it weeks later

The world is watching

They arenít looking at ďbrave adventurersĒ

messageRe: EU Trade Talks Thread
Posted by stepdown February 18, 05:31PM

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Monetarism is about the supply of money.

Right, it's about how much money the ECB prints and what interest rates they set. So why do you think that has anything to do with the EU budget?

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